Removing bad sand

[greasemonkey]

I need yalls help convincing my roomate that the sand in her 10 gal is causing her problems. This tank has a canister filter with a package of purigen inside, a seaclone 100 skimmer producing 1 1/3 cups of skimmate per week, a small powersweep powerhead and 96w Aqualight. Water params are ph 8.4 at lights out 7.9 in mornin, Ammo is 0, nitrite is 0, nitrates 60+. Dont know alk or cal. I have put a small bunch of culerpa that hasnt helped but is growing very fast. This tank used to be covered in micro brittle stars but now they are hard to find.

Anyway I want to remove the sand bed cause this is the only thing I can think of. I clean the glass every day, and change 2 gal of water a week. This tank has been up for almost 18 months. Any Advice?

[dow]

Is this a current photo?

[greasemonkey]

Last week

[CD]

What grade of sand is it? Kinda hard to tell by the pic, but it almost looks like crushed coral/rubble.
Also, what kind of water are you using...RO/DI or tap?

Wendy

[greasemonkey]

RO only from startup. Sorry the pics arent great the sand is sugar sand with rubble rock for rock work. Bought the sand from Petland as wet packaged "live sand".

[gjuarez]

I would definately get rid of the sand bed. ONe thing that I have noticed is that my nano does better without a skimmer. I just do frequent water changes and it is crystal clear. I cant explain why but all the cyano and other nuissance algaes went away as soon as I took it out.

[matt]

First thing I'd do is try to siphon or otherwise remove a sample of sand; try for some of the worst stuff you can find. Smell it; if it has a sulphur odor, you should remove it. If not, I'd try to siphon off detritus from the sand, but leave it in there and get a dozen or so bristleworms to help clean it. If you have to remove it, I strongly suggest you go out and buy another 10 gallon aquarium for about $10, and transfer the water, livestock, and rock into that, plus any new sand you want. Just toss the old tank at that point, or clean it out and sell it for $5. Or, better yet, figure out a way to use the old one as a refugium; you can grow LOTs of macro algae in that one, and it will really help your water quality in the display tank.

Eventually the macroalgae will consume existing nitrates, but it will take some time. You also might try several 50% water changes, maybe one a week or so for a month. You just have to make sure that the new water has the same temp, S.G., ph, Ca, and alk that the water you're removing has.

Good luck!

[GaryP]

First off, what makes you think the sand is bad or the cause of the problems? Just exactly what is the problem, you never said. Everyone seems to be offering solutions to a problem that is very vaguely defined. Nitrates? The disappearance of the micr stars?


First thing I'd do is try to siphon or otherwise remove a sample of sand; try for some of the worst stuff you can find. Smell it; if it has a sulphur odor, you should remove it.

Matt,

Why do you assume that the presence of "sulphur odor" is a reason to remove the sand. Why is its presence inheriantly a bad thing? The presence of sulfur odor indicates the bioegradation of sulfur containing organic materials such as proteins by bacteria in a DSB. I would be more concerned if I didn't smell it than if I did. If you didn't smell it, it would mean that sulfur compounds are accumulating in the system.

[greasemonkey]

My info is based on countless posts on removing sandbeds and everyone talks about nitrates going out with the sand. I want the best quality of life for these critters since I maintain the tank for her. Also this tank used to grow coralline like crazy, then we moved across the street (Blanco Rd.) . The tank was down for about 4 hours then aloud to to settle before the critters were reintroduced. Since then the problem has been high nitrates, extremly high. I dont feel this tank is big enough for a sand bed, much less like the idea of waste being stored instead of being dealt with. I feel it would be easier, not to mention healthier if I can siphon an eggcrate bottom instead of stirring up the sand.

I am still new so correct me if Im wrong please.

[gjuarez]

Like I mentioned before, I would get rid of hte sand bed. It seems like your sand bed is working backwards for the tank. Instead of soaking up the nutrients it is releasing them. Sometimes when you move or stir the sand bed, some of the wastes that are under the sand bed will get released and cause amonia spikes. THat might have been the case. How do you maintain the sand bed? Do you siphon it? What type of critters do you have? I got rid of my sandbed because I hated maintaining it. ONce I removed it everything started doing better and nitrates and phosphates went down to zero. The detritus will gather in the bottom of the tank and it is very easy to siphon out. I would go for it. It is just my opinion however.

[GaryP]

The problem with a sand bed in a small tank is that most people aren't willing to sacrifice 1/3 of the tank to get a sand bed deep enough to be effective. A DSB that will help with nitrates needs to be at least 4-5 inches thick. That's hard to do with a 12" deep tank. A DSB does not "store" waste, it processes it. From the pic of your tank it looks like you don't really have a DSB. I don't know that an eggcrate bottom is going to be a good idea either. You'll probably find its pretty hard to siphon stuff out of it and it just acts as a place to accumulate detritus. A siphon doesn't suck like a vacuum cleaner. I have a DSB in my Nano and have 0 nitrates. I think the sand bed often gets the blame for a lot of other things happening in the tank.

[greasemonkey]

Is there a way to clean this sand after I remove it? Will rubble be better for substrate considering the tank size?

[gjuarez]

Gary, sorry for my ignorance on deep sand beds. Can you please explain why a sand bed needs to be 4-5 inches thick. I never understood sand beds, can you explain?

[CD]

Is there a way to clean this sand after I remove it?


If you want the sand critters to stay alive, rinsing it in SW would be the way to go...otherwise, just rinse in FW.



Will rubble be better for substrate considering the tank size?


No. Rubble doesn't denitrify like a DSB does, and it will collect detritus. Better to either go BB or DSB...one or the other.

Wendy

[GaryP]

For some reason I showed up as a guest.

[CD]

For some reason I showed up as a guest.


LOL...I knew it was you anyway! :lol

Wendy

[GaryP]

Probably due to my use of words with more than two syllables.

[CD]

Probably due to my use of words with more than two syllables.


LOL...an irrefutable fact! :P

Wendy

[Ram_Puppy]

perhaps the sandbed is being pegged as the obvious culprit here when it isn't really contributing to the problem at all? a 10 gallon tank needs to be managed strictly, even a little evaporation can be a big deal. This is after all in the 'nano' range.

While I agree from my own expereince that the area available in a 10 gallon simply isn't enough to matter, I don't think you can just peg it as the issue.

How often do you change the media in the canister filter? what are you running in addition to the Purigen? I think Purigen is awesome stuff, but I use it in conjunction w/ a good carbon as well, Purigen does not absorb everything carbon does, but it is a great synergistic media (Working with carbon.) Also, Purigen is a rechargeable media, are you recharging it and are you sure you are doing it properly? I personally don't recharge my purigen, I think it's inexpensive enough that I would rather avoid the whole soaking in bleach thing.

Also, what are the temps in the tank? Morning and evening? cause, the symptoms you are describing mirror almost exactly what my tank went through with the heat spike, small invertebrate populations plummeted, nitrates went up, was cleaning film algae every single day...

be very thourough in your investigation.

[BPolyniak]

If the problem is nitrates have you looked at your canister filter filled with Purigen. The purigen my need to be replaced. I think it turns dark in color when getting old.

Just a thought.

[BPolyniak]

opps...Just read Ram puppys post. sorry for the same info.

[Ram_Puppy]

great minds man, great minds! :)

[matt]

First thing I'd do is try to siphon or otherwise remove a sample of sand; try for some of the worst stuff you can find. Smell it; if it has a sulphur odor, you should remove it.

Matt,

Why do you assume that the presence of "sulphur odor" is a reason to remove the sand. Why is its presence inheriantly a bad thing? The presence of sulfur odor indicates the bioegradation of sulfur containing organic materials such as proteins by bacteria in a DSB. I would be more concerned if I didn't smell it than if I did. If you didn't smell it, it would mean that sulfur compounds are accumulating in the system.

Well, two things here. One, sulphur odor in a sand bed signifies the presence of accumulated and decomposed waste poducts that are not being processed by animals living in the sand. The way a deep sand bed works is by providing habitat for a variety of animals, some visible, and some microscopic, that process waste in the tank down the food chain, until it (the waste) is eventually consumed to the point at which it is no longer accumulating and polluting the system. It doesn't really have to do with anoxic bacteria; it's simply uneaten waste products accumulating. In a tank with high nitrates, like this one, it's possible that there simply is not enough bacteria or habitat for the bacteria to keep up with the nitrogen cycle that this waste is generating. Ron Shimek, who is certainly an authority on sand beds, has told me directly that sulpur odor in a sand bed is an indication that the sand bed is not working, and such sand should be removed from the system. This was when I was having some problems with my old tank, and I was also considering a large sand bed system to produce a local live sand source. I'm certain he's written about this in many articles.

The other thing is that it's likely there is simply not enough space in a 10 gallon tank to have a functioning deep sand bed, that is, one with enough animal diversity to handle the waste generated by the tank's inhabitants. Again, according to Shimek, this is because the small area simply will not allow enough diversity to exist for long; many sand bed animals need more space. I don't claim to really understand this, because it has to do with the particular behavior of many different species of sand dwelling animals, but I would defer to his knowledge as a respected expert in this particular area.

The nitrogen cycle, when completed, results in the release of free nitrogen in a sand bed, not the accumulation of sulphur dioxide. (or whatever the compound is that produces the rotten egg smell) Sulphur dioxide results from unprocessed waste products "rotting" in an anoxic area. I certainly could see a connection between that happening and high nitrate levels in a small system. Why would you assume that the absence of this smell in the sand would indicate it's presence in the system? Where else would these compounds accumulate? In the water? It's my understanding that there needs to be a pretty anoxic environment for their production. I'm pretty sure that if you don;t smell sulphur compounds in the sand (or possibly in curing liverock) it's a safe bet that there simply are no sulphur compunds being produced by relatively large amounts of uneaten waste in the tank.

[greasemonkey]

Good info guys thanks. I change the purigen every 2 weeks and agree its cheap enough to avoid recharge. I am using Marineland media from petsmart now also changed every 2 weeks in a nylon sock. Also the tempature ranges between 76-80, although I changed thermo.s today to check its accuracy.

I am worried also about this tank sitting by the window like it is. I know I can talk her into moving it some where else.

[SaltyJim]

Forgive me if I missed it, but like Gary said, you never really have stated what the problem you are trying to correct is....high nitrates? nuisannce algaes?

Also, you said the tank has been setup for 18 months...is that the age of the PC bulbs as well? If your bulbs are older than 8-10 months, that can add to you algae problem.

IMO, if you want to reduce the nitrates, try a couple of larger water changes over a period of a week.

[greasemonkey]

The problem is nitrates and nuisance algeas. Sorry if I didnt make that clear. The bulbs have been replaced 1 month ago and in September of last year, and purchased in March of last year. I will be doing a large water change tomorrow so well have to see how well it does. Thanks everyone.

[Ram_Puppy]

hey GM,

not trying to schill for CB pets here, but you really should try out the carbon they are carrying, It is 3 different kinds of carbon, and far more porus than the marineland black diamond, if you think black diamon 'sizzles' when you get it wet, you haven't heard anything... :) Give it a whirl.

[greasemonkey]

I will. Thanks!!

[alton]

What was your water change schedule? One or two gal. a week, two gal's every two weeks. If the tank has been set up for 18 months that would mean the lamps where changed 6 months ago? The center coral is it some type of leather and is it putting out a toxic waste into the tank? I have kept a small tank for years and one thing I have learned is a water change once a week, change lamps every year, and keep nothing that can put out toxic waste because small tanks do not have enough space to dissipate waste like a larger tank. What type of animal do you have to stir up the sand? All is not lost it's going to take time to get it turned around.

[brewercm]

Just a quick note. If the algae is the main problem you may want to try and move the aquarium away from being right in front of the window or block the light out better. You are still going to get enough sunlight through those blinds to cause algae blooms, also a DSB in a 10 gallon would be a waiste of time.

Just my opinion.

[GaryP]

I'm still a little mystified over the whole sullfur issue and I plan on doing some reading on it this weekend. Organic waste contains sulfur in the form of protein. Sulfur acts as linkages in protein molecules to give it a functional shape. This sulfur needs to be processed at some point in the waste treatment process. This proteinaceous sulfur is most likely processed by aerobic bacteria and what is not used by them is released into the water as inorganic sulfur compounds such as sulfate. There are anaerobic bacteria called Sufate reducing bacteria (SRBs) that use sulfate like aerobic bacteria use oxygen. The bacteria most commonly encountered in marine systems is Desulfovibrio desulfuricans. The end result of this is the formation of hydrogen sulfide (not sufur dioxide). SRBs are a natural part of all marine and FW sediments. The reulting hydrogen sulfide is often precipitated as an iron salt, iron sulfide. This is the black material that you often see in a DSB when you tear it down.

Additionally, other bacteria may digest proteins and the resulting products may include compounds called mercaptans. They have a similar smell to hydrogen sulfide. Mercaptans are the products that are used to add odor to natural gas, propae, and butane so that leaks are easily detected. My opinion is that these compounds are simply the natural product of bacterial decomposition and do not necessarily indicate that the sand bed is "unhealthy."

I guess the question is what is the fate of organic sulfur in a "healthy" system. As I said earlier, I'll read Shimek and see if I can come up with some better answers. I know how the natural systems work, and I have theories about aquarium systems and am open to new explanations.

Just as there is a nitrogen cycle and phosphate cycle in any environmental system, including aquariums, there is also a sulfur cycle. The nitrogen cycle in an aquarium is similar, but not identical, to that in nature. I feel that is probably the case with the sulfur cycle. I'm not disputing Shimek's claims. I am, however, admitting that I don't understand them from a nutrient cycling, system management, and microbiology standpoint.

BTW, when I worked as a microbiologist, my specialty was sulfate reducing bacteria in industrial water systems, especially oilfield injection systems.

[Thunderkat]

I don't see a problem with your tank, its looks really nice. I see very little problem algae and cyano.

I have lots but it seems to be going away albeit slowly. The things people have recommended to me are increasing flow, use RO water for all your water changes (of course mix it with your sea salt mix), do a 10% water change every two weeks until under control, use activated carbon, and for me pull out the cyano with your hands (I pulled out large handfuls at a time).

[GaryP]

For a Nano I would recommend weekly 10% water changes as SOP.

[greasemonkey]

Thanks for the compliment Thunderkat, I just feel I could be doing alot better for these critters.
For the first 6 mo.s the tank was lit by a cheap light and then I bought the Aqualight. I have replaced the bulbs 2 now thinking it had to be every 6 months. Glad I saved my old bulbs. Also latley I have been doing 2.5 gal changes every week.

[gjuarez]

I now have my explanation on why a sand bed needs to be deep in order to function. Thanks guys