I've been putting Vodka in my tank

[RobertG]

I got some Titos in the fridge. :P Let me know more. I would like the help with the brown algae.

[NaCl_H2O]

I agree, my tank looks much better too after a few Martini's :)

Interesting theory???

[MikeDeL]

Ah you beet me to it Steve.

[bigdscobra]

So when I come home drunk it wont be so bad cause the fish will be too!!!

J/K :lol :wacko

[GaryP]

I have a problem with this idea too. It assumes that the water is difficient in organics. The term is for that is DOC (dissolved organic carbon). I've never heard of a tank with low DOC. Salifert actually makes a test kit for DOC. I know that CB pets carries it.

On the flip side I can think of one rationale for the idea here. Much of the DOC is made up of complex organic molecules such as proteins and fats. The vodka would be adding simpler organics such as sugars and alcohol. Bacteria can metabolize these molecules much more easily than the complex organics.

The question then becomes do you want the bacteria preferentially using the simple organics over the complex organics. Yes, they will use up more nitrate and phosphate, but that leaves the complex organics in the water. They are more likely to be toxic stuff. That is why I think you are seeing the skimmer producing more stuff, because there is more to remove in the water. Simple organics are not surface active and therefore wouldn't be removed by the skimmer.

Just my theory, FWIW.

[TexasTodd]

Hmmm. Not much being posted on RC in the SPS area on this.

I've heard of it and I believe that some using Zeovit actually do does vodka along with it.

How much have you been dosing per gallon of system water?

How long have you been doing this?

GARY, this does coincide with one thing that has stuck in my mind FOR A LONG TIME. BOMBER on RC who is a sps guru, phd, and lives in the FL keys doing reef study for his job made a statement when people were asking about getting their CA up in the 500's to "boost growth". BOMBER stated he keeps his around 350ppm BECAUSE CARBON IS THE LIMITING SUBSTANCE IN SPS GROWTH NOT CALCIUM.

Joshua, you say "your acro growth tips are more colorful"????? Under ideal conditions they should be long and WHITE on most acros. Got any pictures?

Very interesting topic and I like to see it's on MAAST. I think more indepth threads like this will keep people tuned in to MAAST instead of the national forums.

Thanks for the thread!

Todd

[TexasTodd]

Joshua, how long have you been dosing the vodka now?

What brand and proof? Seriously.

TT

[dow]

Hmmm... When do you hit the threshold at which the clown starts hanging around with the aiptasia?

[GaryP]

This sorta reminds me of the guy from GARF that adds urine to his tank because he thinks nitrogen is the limiting growth factor.

[Brett Wilson]

This sorta reminds me of the guy from GARF that adds urine to his tank because he thinks nitrogen is the limiting growth factor.
I could only imagine the looks he gets from his fish!

[TexasTodd]

So Gary, you don't believe that Carbon is normally the limitting factor in sps growth in a tank?

TT

[GaryP]

Well, if my skimmer stopped producing gunk then I would assume that carbon is the limiting nutrient. Since that has never happened, short of a malfunction, then I assume there is no shortage of carbon in my water.

From an environmental standpoint, nitrogen and phosphate (more so phosphate) are normally the limiting nutrients in any system. That's why there is always an algae bloom associated with excess phosphates.
I do know they add molasses to some industrial waste water systems to raise the carbon content, but that would be in those with low TOC. About 4-5 times as much nitrogen is utilized for growth than phosphate, but more nitrogen is producedd as a product of decay.

[Thunderkat]

The only thing I see wrong with that is alcohol is the WASTE product of bacteria. Bacteria don't eat their own waste products. If you grow bacteria on a petrie (bap mac or choc) dish and incubator they grow like mad for 48 hours. After that they slow down because mainly their own wastes choke them and the nutrients start to diminish.

[GaryP]

Well, alcohol is actually produced by yeast not bacteria and there is a bacteria that will eat just about any organic product. I actually worked on a project in college to find a bacteria to eat a chemical that no one thought could be bio degraded (PCBs).

[eric]

The alcohol is the byproduct from the yeast, but it dies (starts eating itself) when the alcohol content gets to a certain point (dependant on the yeast strain) no matter how much food (sugar) you add. The distilling process is gonna take out all the impurities including the yeast, in vodka up to 95+% pure and then cut.

Now alcohol is commonly used as a sterilizing agent at least with the intention of killing bacteria. I'm sure there is some bacteria it won't kill. What is it that's breaking it down for use in a tank?

[GaryP]

Not Ammonia. Mammals excrete excess nitrogen as an organic product called urea. Fish and reptiles excrete it as ammonia as I recall. I think the other organic waste products that include sugars is part of the reason for adding it to the tank. Not only are you supplementing nitrogen but organics as well.

Joshua, you don't even have to go to the liquor store. Just start working on a good way to explain to your kids why Daddy is peeing in the tank.

Question? Aren't you adding organics to your water every time you feed?

[Thunderkat]

That sounds like a bit of a rhetorical question Gary. :P Are you setting me up? Actually I wouldn't have to do it then, I'd just hold one of the kids over the sump for a while. :sick

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[GaryP]

I'm not arguing that there may be some benefit to using Vodka as a supplement, as demonstrated by empirical results. My argument is that the explanation for why it works, based on organics being the limiting growth factor, just doesn't fly IMO.

[Thunderkat]

Maybe the algae just can't handle the alcohol.

[Thunderkat]

I'll try to think of more tomorrow when this headache goes away.

I also forgot to ask, what was the ratio of tank to owner for the vodka? :lol

[jaded]

Do I have to be 21 to look at your tank now?

[GaryP]

Just show your ID to the bouncer at the door.

If the nitrates and phosphates have gone down, that would explain the reason the macro is not growing. There may be enough for them to remain static, but not enough for active growth. However, as long as you are feeding they will never go to zero. Remember though, your corals need nitrates and phosphates too. Even if it was possible to go to zero, you wouldn't want to.

[NaCl_H2O]

Wait a minute, I just figured this out. MAAST cannot support/host activities which include alcoholic beverages ... this is just Joshua's way of never hosting a MAAST meeting at his place!

Slick move Josh ;)

[GaryP]

Your water is clear because you have less planktonic algae in your water. They are what produce the pigments that give water its color. That is another result of lower nitrate and phosphate levels.

[brewercm]

So why is my water clear?

Because your head is all foggy from all the water changes now. :D

Do you deny that you have a problem?
Do you now find yourself wanting to do water changes first thing in the morning?
Do you find yourself sneaking around your family to do water changes?
Do you find yourself hiding bottles in your reef closet.
Do you find yourself justifying your constant water changes?

Right, apparently if any of the levels bottom out it actually causes a reverse effect and your levels start moving upward rapidly. There will always be phosphates and nitrates in the water, just a matter of reducing the amount so the excess nuisance algaes stay away.

If any of these are true you could be a reefaholic(Vodka Style).

[mathias]

how about everclear :)

[Thunderkat]

I wonder if the people with Alcoholics Anonymous will ban its members from keeping aquariums now?

[TexasTodd]

About 4-5 times as much nitrogen is utilized for growth than phosphate, but more nitrogen is producedd as a product of decay.


Above from Gary. So Gary is it possible that the real end result is actually removing the phosphate by bumping the nitrogen produced by feeding the bacteria? There are some great articles in Coral magazine and one of the latest has the "aquarium nutrients" guy talking about BALANCE between nitrogen and PO4 and what goes wrong if they are out of balance with each other.

Todd

[GaryP]

You're not going to get an appreciable amount of nitrogen from vodka. I understand exactly what he is saying though. There is a similar problem associated with waste runoff from dairy operations. The state regulates the amount of waste that can be applied to fields based on the nitrogen requirements of the crops being grown. That results in an excess of phosphate being applied which in turn leads to run-off of phosphates to the surrounding water sheds. The end result... green water.

[mathias]

and again everclear is stronger means it will do better :)

[GaryP]

Vodka is basically watered down Everclear.

[NaCl_H2O]

New twist on all theories above:

Get really smashed & pee in your tank, then dump all the excess alcohol in your stomach into your tank rather than in the porcelain alter.

That should handle all the Chemistry concerns from above!

... I think I'll stick to my Kalk & Buffer ;)

[::pete::]

I think y'all are nukin' futz wasting it in the tank :lol

PO4 Minus

[Thunderkat]

Just make sure the following doesn't happen to your corals. I saw that you said your algae turned white, hope that doesn't happen to the Zooxanthellae too.


Zooxanthellae: In some species, the gastrodermis is also home to zooxanthellae (zo-zan-THEL-ee), a type of unicellular algae. The zooxanthellae live inside the gastrodermal cells of coral in what is called a "symbiotic relationship." In this type of association, two organisms live in close proximity and at least one of the organisms benefit from the relationship. In the case of coral and zooxanthellae, both organisms benefit from their living arrangement. The zooxanthellae are photosynthetic organisms; they capture sunlight and turn it into energy-rich compounds, which can be transferred to the cells of the polyp. Like all plants, the zooxanthellae need certain nutrients, such as nitrogen and phosphate, to survive and continue photosynthesis. The concentration of these compounds in ocean water is very small, and the zooxanthellae acquire them from the polyp. The polyp obtains these essential nutrients through the plankton and other food it eats. The zooxanthellae are also responsible for the color of the coral. If the zooxanthellae die, the coral turns a white color, called "coral bleaching," and is a very unhealthy condition. Though the zooxanthellae and some coral polyps can survive independent of one another, it is much more efficient for them to work together, and they are able to grow much faster if they cooperate.

[jaded]

so, which is it.... http://www.paddletexas.com/images/temp_images/thumbup.jpg or http://www.paddletexas.com/images/temp_images/thumbdown.jpg

[beareef19]

Good play on words Pete, are" you "dosing vodka?? :blink :blink :blink

Barry

[oceancube]

well josh that explains why you act kinda weird when i go by now(you2 shots , your tank 1 shot eh), hope my clown doesn't turn into an drunka$$!! :P

[dillonsshop]

I'm not real knowagable in the area of salt water tanks, but the idea seems sound. I feel if I'm going to have a few boat drinks the fish should too :D but then again, I'm me and they are them.

[Ram_Puppy]

Hmm, I think you need to experiment with Grey Goose, (fish start acting french?) Smirnoff (College student behavior? frat clubs forming?) Absolut (pretentious 20 something that think it's the best?) and of course, Tito's (intelligent rational behavior for choosing the best darn vodka around.) :)

Next Month, Patron, Jose Cuervo, (Gold, Silver variations as well)

[Tim Marvin]

Urine is 95% water, and also contains urea, uric acid, a trace of amino acids, and electrolytes.

[NaCl_H2O]

OMG Josh, I just realized ... you didn't let those young innocent frags associate with your alcoholic corals, did you ;)

No wonder some of them had CRABS :D

[captexas]

I'm curious to see what affects the alcohol has on the fish and inverts. While the bacteria may use it up, I'm sure some alcohol gets into the systems of the livestock.

[GaryP]

Based on the dosages that Joshua gave, we are only looking at about 10 ppm alcohol in the water.

[Thunderkat]

Yeah, also watch out for the fish that cry and the other ones that become all huggy. :lol

[pilot_bell777]

Maybe you should get a boxer crab to play bouncer in your reef bar!