Some very sick fish! Help Please!

[90OcReef]

I'm not too familiar with fish diseases, so any help would be appreciated. Well, I have had 2 cowfish in a 29 gallon tank all by themselves for about 6 months. Last week i had one die from some disease. I'd like to know if anyone can ID it by me describing it and possibly suggest what i should do with my last cowfish. I believe they started out with ich, (which i treated w/ stop parasites) But then on the cowfish's belly i started to see a dark spot and then it spread and soon after it looked like some of his scales began to shed, like sunburn on a person. You could see a slight pinkish look to his belly shortly after and then i couldn't stand him being in pain anymore so i had to remove him from the tank. The smaller cow was picking on him and i just felt that it was the right thing to do. Now i would like to break this tank down and clean it out really good so that i dont have a situation like this again. But that would consist of donating the remaining cowfish to the LFS but i wouldn't think about doing this before he was cured. Any suggestions on what it might have been and what i should do? The tank currently has no liverock or any other fish in it. The smaller cowfish just developed a dark spot on his belly about a week or two ago. Chris & Wendy (CD) and i are sort of having the same problem right now. I think that what they have been describing is the same thing that is happening to my fish. He has had some responses back letting him know some options but only two sound somewhat promising. Either use copper on a fish only tank or use Melafix. We both know what copper can do to a tank, but we dont have much knowledge on Melafix. Any help would be greatly appreciated by Chris&Wendy and also myself!! Please if you have had any experience with treating Velvet let us know what you did to pull through successfully. Thanks for the help.

-Jessica

[Richard]

It sounds like a secondary bacterial infection. It is not unsual for fish to develop bacterial infections following a bout with parasites. It is fairly difficult to have success once the infection has set in. Melafix combined with Pimafix is said by the manufacturer to be effective but I have not had success with it for systemic bacterial infections. Even antibiotics are not that effective in saltwater. I have had the best success using a product called spectragram but this company is no longer in business. You might try calling around to see if any LFS still have some in stock. It contained antibiotics kanamycin and nitrofurazone. If you cannot find it, I would go with Furan-2 which also contains nitrofurazone. Avoid using erythromycin (maracyn and some other products - check the active ingredient) as it is only effective against gram positive bacteria and most bacterial infections are gram negative. Also, bacterial infections are usually caused by stress such as parasites or more commonly poor water quality.

For Velvet...
I have treated successfully many times. Use hyposalinity at sg 1.010 along with daily bath treatments using ich-x manufactured by Hikari (formalin & malachite green combined). If that is not available use formalin baths daily. I usually treat at about 80% the recommended dosage with these medications are quite harsh on the fish. They seem to be equally effective at that dose without causing as much stress on the fish. Quick Cure is another formalin/malachite green cocktail like Hikari's Ich-X but the Hikari Ich-X uses a less harsh form of malachite green.

I'm sure you know this but just in case....These treatments are NOT reef safe and must be done in a hospital tank.

[CD]

Richard,

Thanks for the tip!

Wendy and I made a post about the velvet issue recently as we are having that problem currently.
We have been laboriously researching for the last 2 days about solving this problem.
We are going to try your suggestion as nobody seems to have really battled this problem personally and are willing to try anything that has been attempted and has worked with some positive results.
Obviously, you have used this technique with good results but it is more likely that the dips are probably the key rather than hyposalinity.

We are just passing along some info here that we found during our research and that is the only reason for my previous statement.
According to some information that we found (studies from the University of Florida), velvet trophonts and tomonts have formed dinospores in salinities ranging from 3 to 45ppt. Optimal reproductive range appears to be in the 16.7 to 28.5 ppt. Obviously hyposalinity gets out of the optimal range for reproduction but still is in a range that they can tolerate and live.

Also the University of Florida has conducted successful studies that are currently being performed using Hydrogen Peroxide, however, long term effects are inconclusive thus far. - Just thought this was interesting.

Chris

[90OcReef]

Thank you for your help - That was very informative and I will definately look for the spectragram or the Furan-2. Thank you again

-Jessica

[Richard]

Chris,
Your right, Hyposalinity is not very effective on amlyoodinium. However it is very effective on most strains of cryptocaryon (so called marine ich). I use a microscope to id what it is I'm trying to treat whenever I have a problem. What I have found in practice is that in every instance that I have positively identified amlyoodinium I have also seen cryptocaryon along side of it. I believe the combination of the two parasites taking advantage of the fish is the primary reason for the rapid losses that people see. Basically overwhelming them.

That is why I recommend you use hyposalinity along side of the baths. If it is feasable that is, don't try to cram a bunch of fish into an undersized qt tank or you will surely have high losses.

There is another common parasite is sometimes the underlying cause of such rapid infestations called Neobenedia melleni (common name is eye fluke). They are generally not visible to the naked eye but when fish are heavily infected the eyes get cloudy, hence the name, although they attach to any part of the fish. They are completely unaffected by formalin/malachite green or copper. They are easily killed with 3-4 minute freshwater dips. Freshwater dips are easily tolerated by relatively healthy fish but far to stressful for weak, heavily infected fish. If you wanted to cover all your bases you could do the hypo for crypto, dips for amlyoodinium and also use praziquantel (Prazi-Pro by Hikari) to knock out any flukes. Praziquantel is quite mild but effective however I would not risk using it on a reef system.

[CD]

Thanks for clarifying that Richard.
We have noticed the cloudy eye scenario on some of our fish.
We will also investigate/intiate the praziquantel.

Thank you for the suggestions.
I think Jessica is going to use one method and I believe that will will try the other you suggested.
Hopefully we will both have success but if either Jess's or our fish can be spared, at least we know how to attempt to deal with it.

Thanks again.

Chris

[Dozer]

I just wanted to say this is amazing info. from Richard! Wow. I know exactly where I'm going first if/when I ever encounter something nasty like this. I'm sure you're helping Chris and Wendy but I think this info. will help other people in the future too. I'm sure everything you said is out there on the web somewhere, but you put it so concisely and covered 3 common culprits and their treatments all at once.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks Richard!

[CD]

I'm sure you're helping Chris and Wendy but I think this info. will help other people in the future too. I'm sure everything you said is out there on the web somewhere, but you put it so concisely and covered 3 common culprits and their treatments all at once.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks Richard!


I agree 100% Mike- quality info from Richard.
If we've learned anything from our misfortune, it has to be that a QT for 4-6 weeks is officially a requirement for our future fish purchases- NO EXCEPTIONS!
Wendy and I hope that nobody has to go through this painful experience.

Chris

[Dozer]

Chris- I'm sorry you both have to go through this, really. I'm glad that we have MAAST to come to and have access to such knowledge and such great people when these things happen, to help get through it. As you said hopefully something positive can come out of it- that's all that you can hope for I guess.

[90OcReef]

Sorry guys, I was away for the weekend. Richard- these guys are right, absolutely wonderful help. I hope one day through experience that i could help some people like you just helped Chris and I. Chris is right, I will try dripping a few drops of copper into my 29 gal tank. It's a small tank so i will probably start out with around 2-3 drops from and eye dropper. Does this sound like too little? I just know how harmful copper is to fish, let alone cowfish who are one of those guys that dont take to meds well. I was thinking about working my way up, but starting out very small too see how he takes it. Any suggestions? Thanks again Richard, wonderful info. GoodLuck Chris!

-Jessica

[Richard]

I'm glad you found the info helpful.

I would not use the copper. Copper is really only effective against cryptocaryon and velvet to a lesser extent (use for mild cases of velvet). If that's what your trying to treat with the copper then you should try hyposalinity first given that cowfish are sensitive to copper.

EDIT: Maybe I'm not understanding your problem correctly. Are you having a problem with velvet also? Or is it the bacterial infection (the brown spot?).

[90OcReef]

well the cowfish that i had before died shortly after his scales began to shed just like chris and wendy said their fish are doing. Kind of like sunburn. I believe people were telling them that it sounded like velvet. Before the other cowfish died he developed dark spots on his belly where the scales then began to shed?? I'm not exactly sure what i am dealing with. It also started out like it was a slight case of Ich. Thanks

-Jessica

[CD]

Jess - I think what Richard said makes sense...It could've started out as a combination of both ich *and* velvet, then maybe your fish developed an infection as a result. It's so hard dealing with these problems without having a microscope to positively identify the illness. So sorry for your losses. :(

Hey, maybe we could all pitch in and get a MAAST microscope. That would be really cool...maybe bring it to meetings, and anybody that had a fish death of unknown origin could check it out and see what the problem was. It would be a great learning experience for all of us. We could use it for other things too...even for presentations - like the most recent one on aptasia...all sorts of stuff. What do ya'll think?

Wendy

[90OcReef]

Wendy-
Yea i am starting to think that the copper wouldn't help either. I think your microscope idea is great, Too bad i live in Maryland, LoL. That's a good suggestion that i can make to my local forum too. Great idea Wendy. Thanks

-Jess

[Dozer]

Wendy- I would be interested in going in on this microscope also. In fact, one in Austin one in SA might even make sense I think- though I admittedly don't have the slightest idea what they cost. I would think we could get something decent without spending a ton though.

[CD]

Mike - yeah, I have no idea what a decent one would cost either, but I think this could be a great learning tool for all of us. We wouldn't have to buy "new", but I wouldn't know what type of microscope would best suit our purposes. I think if enough people pitched in, the out of pocket would be insignificant in comparison to the things we could do and learn with it. Come to think of it, we could even do something like a "bake sale" to earn money towards buying one. Should we start another post? I don't want to take over Jessica's post, and I'd be curious to see if anybody else thinks this would be a good idea.

Wendy

[90OcReef]

Start a post, i would, it can't hurt anything. Dont worry about taking over my thread! That's how these groups come up with good ideas!!

-Jess

[Richard]

You don't need anything fancy. Most things are visible under 100X with only a few things being hard to view under 400X like uronema (looks like a million bumper cars running around under 400X). I think I paid about $100 for mine. Maybe something like these http://www.microscopeworld.com/high/hpex.htm

Honestly, I don't know how useful it would be to a hobbyist though. Think about it, the parasite is on the fish so the fish is stressed. The more the fish is stressed the weaker it's immune system therfore the more susceptible it is to even greater infection. In order to get a sample you would have to be willing to scrape the fish which is ALOT of stress which often means your going to kill it. If you do end up getting one you can find excellent picture references in the image library of www.fishdisease.net

Chris & Wendy
Since you are planning on QT'ing your fish, I think you can skip the microscope and probably never deal with disease issues again if you learn a few simple things about qt'ing fish and fish diseases. I'd be happy to help you with that if you want. Without getting too in depth some simple tips are...
1.) Freshwater Dips are your Friend.
2.) Hyposalinity is your Friend.
3.) The fishes own immune system is your BEST FRIEND.
4.) Copper can be your friend or your enemy. Too much to say about copper with a one liner. Basically it's your friend if you know what your doing, why your doing it and what your doing it to. Otherwise it might be your enemy.

Also, you mentioned WWM earlier. You've probably noticed those guys (Fenner & Co) view that through quarantine you will/can prevent "ICH" from ever entering your display tank as opposed to the "ICH" is always present viewpoint. The truth is both viewpoints are correct. "Marine Ich" is really just a term for "white stuff on fish". Just take a look through the images library on fishdisease.net and you'll see just how many nasties there are that can and do show up with fish, many of which can appear as "ICH" on the fish. Some of them are easily kept out of your system, some of them can be kept out of your system MAYBE, while others are always going to be there waiting for some stressful event to weaken your fishes immune system like an ammonia spike or a broken heater the night a cold front comes rolling in ( I'm pretty sure those are the only nights heaters will break -Murphy's Law I guess). This is also why there will always be debates like "This treatment works - No it doesn't". People making claims that one treatment works or doesn't aren't always dealing with the same parasite.

I've rambled on too long. I better stop or people will think GaryP is using my logon ;) . I've always been interested in fish diseases - just weird I guess. I wish the fish were as tough as some of the critters they bring with them sometimes.

[Dozer]

Richard actually makes a great point. Would it really help us all that much to be able to see it under the microscope? There are really only a few treatments that would likely be appropriate anyway, and the symptoms would tell us enough to determine that I suppose.

[Polkster13]

Jumping up on soapbox...

It really depends on if you are planning on using antibiotics. You have to know what you are treating before you begin treating. You cannot apply antiboitics blindly. You also have to be very careful with the way you dispose of any water or fish that you have treated with antiboitics.

A lot of very nasty strains of bacteria have developed resistantcy to broad sprectum antibiotics because of their misuse. This is beginning to happen in the aquarium trade as well. I am a firm believer that antibiotics should only be used be qualified individuals and only in those rare cases that it warrants the use. If we keep going like we are going, a new strain will develop that is immune to all known antibiotics. That will be a very bad day indeed.

Okay, hopping down from my soap box.

As far as the microscope, go for it. There are lots of really cool stuff to look at. Check out your water from your faucet, stuff from your back yard, et cetera. You will be suprized and shocked at what you find.

Now what was that saying? "Ignorance is bliss.", I think.

[CD]

Richard actually makes a great point


He does! I *really* appreciate his well thought out posts...concise, and full of pertinant information (Thank You, Richard!). Plus, since he IS a store owner, we know he sees, experiences, and treats MANY more of these maladies than we would, since we only generally see what goes on in our own tanks.



Would it really help us all that much to be able to see it under the microscope?


Well, I actually think it would. In our case, I wouldn't have wanted to cause anymore stress to one of our fish by taking it out and scraping it for a sample - BUT, since we've had so many fish die from this malady, I would've liked to have been able to examine samples from the first fish that died so the remaining inhabitants could be treated correctly. I literally spent several entire days reading about Velvet and the recommended treatments...during all that reading, I never found a picture online of an actual fish with the disease, or better yet, stages of the disease - only drawings (trust me, drawings don't help much). Even in our book "Conscientious Marine Aquarist", there were only drawings...basically a fish with dots, which looked exactly like the drawing they had for a fish with marine ich.

At the last meeting at Stephen's house, I spoke to another MAAST member (experienced aquarist) who had a cherished fish he owned for quite some time die for no apparent reason. To this day, he does not know the reason it died, and still wonders. I can't speak for him, and won't say who it was (he may not want me to), but noting his concern over the matter, I can't help but think he would've liked to get a better insight into why his fish died. Sometimes, a microscope is the only way to determine what actually happened. To assist fish that are still living by examining a tankmate that has already died, we are able to approach the treatment needs of the remaining fish in a concise manner rather than just guessing at what they have and the resulting treatment. So many treatments are very stressful on the fish, and if we can avoid performing unnecessary treatments, I think our fish would be better off. The more experience and knowledge we have in identifying these problems, the better we will be at approaching future illnesses in our tanks AND the tanks of others. "Knowledge is power" definitely rings true here.

I am truly sad that we've lost so many fish in our tank recently, but it has given me a new found interest in fish diseases, and the limited variety of treatments we now have availb. to us. Richard is 100 percent correct when he said copper can be very deadly when wielded by an inexperienced aquarist...it is FAR to easy to overdose. In one of the links that JimD provided to me, there was mention of research in treatment with Hydrogen Peroxide (I posted this portion of the article in our "Ich/Velvet" help thread). I have great hope for this turning into a commercial product that we can all safely use to combat this horrible malady (Velvet) as the success rates in their experimentations were very high.

Wendy

[Dozer]

Consider me squarely on the fence with this one, sorry to be flaky. If a few folks show interest, I'll likely chip in too. But, I can see where enough folks might not be interested in that level of disease identification.

[jaded]

you might save a few bucks going with something that isnt illuminated like this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3142&item=55721631 72&rd=1). I dont think you would get much from the illuminated scope for this application anyway.