first filter choice

[dillonsshop]

I have been reading these posts for a while now and am now convinced that I NEED to expand from fresh water tanks (5 of various sizes) to at least one salt water. My wife has graciously moved out the mother-in-law and all my tanks can go in her room! There is room for another 55 gallon with stand in there that I have already set up but as I have never played in the salt enviroment, I need advice. The wife and I both like the idea of a tank with anemonies and fish and shrimp but I don't know where to start on filteration. Wet/dry sumps with skimmers seem to be what everybody is working on but is my tank big enough? The local pet shops seem more intrested in selling than explaining and end up confusing more than anything. Thought I might get some feedback from you more experienced folks. Usually for fresh water I'd use an undergravel filter with a power filter like a emperor and it would work great. What suggestions might you have?

[Dozer]

Hey Dillon, welcome to MAAST! You've found the right place for information. I guarantee everything you need to decide on an initial setup is in these pages somewhere. I'll make this short because there is a ton of info. on this site for you to go through first and then you'll come back with specific questions based on your situation. I will give you a few general pointers. Read and research as much as possible before you start buying. There are two reasons for this: 1) If you buy something too soon, you tend to "lock" yourself into other decisions down the line. For example, I bought a tank that was not reef ready. If I could do it again I would definitely spend a little more and get reef ready so that I don't have to run over the top type overflow boxes. The overflows boxes have worked fine for me, but it would look better without the box in there. So your early purchases have a way of shaping what you can do later. 2) Once you start buying it gets kind of contagious. You get more and more anxious to get something up and running and you rush into things (been there, done that!).

Another thing to strongly consider is buying a whole system off of someone. Very often someone is selling an entire tank with all the equipment they were using. This also is very very likely (almost guaranteed) to save you money vs. buying all the pieces yourself. In fact I don't know exactly what you're looking for but I know Tim Marvin was selling a cool corner unit tank (which I want myself, btw, just can't convince the family it's a good idea when I'm still not satisfied with my main display yet...)

I'll keep it brief and just say I hope you stick around and soak up the good information that is available here.

Btw, I agree with you about many of the local fish store people. What I strive to do is to do my homework first, on sites like MAAST and reefcentral.com, then find a store that I like and someone that seems somewhat knowledgable. Then I compare what they told me with what I have read. In many cases the local fish store employee might be crap, in many cases he/she might be very good! But you don't want to just blindly trust anybody if you can help it. What is nice is when you really do some research and learn some things, and then you find a LFS employee/owner that knows their stuff really well (there are actually some of them on this site as a matter of fact) and then you know who to go to when you go to that store in the future.

[gjuarez]

dillonshop, so youre from Brownsville. I would defeinately reccommend a wet dry for your first salt water tank. A skimmer is a must to give yourself more room for error. You can even build a wet dry yourself, just cruise the DIY forum and I am sure someone has all the details. A wet dry is good because it holds many beneficial bacteria that will help break down your organics. There is many ways to do a saltwater tank and i am sure someone will give you another idea. BTW, if you ever come to McAllen drop me a Private Message and maybe you can stop by my house and I will show you. You are also invited to join our marine club. If interested, PM for details.

[jaded]

There are several considerations that must be addressed before you mix your first batch of saltwater...

#1 Filtration - sounds like you already understand at least the basics, and your going to get lots of good advice here. Personally I would think the type of tank your wanting you could do several of the more common types of setups with great success. Perhaps wet/dry, skimmer or sump, fuge, skimmer (this would be my choice). It will depend on the amount of Live Rock, Live Sand, Animals, etc. that you have in the tank (LR and LS are actually part of your bio filtration, but you can find tons of info on that topic by searching the forum or asking specific questions here)

#2 Lighting - Probably more important than mechanical filtration. I'm sure my wording (terminology) is wrong, but my point is that lighting is extrememly important for the type of tank that you want.

#3 Flow - This is not as important in your future tank as it would be for say an SPS tank, none the less this is something that should be well thought out before you plumb in your sump, pump, skimmer...

Unlike freshwater, light and flow take on huge roles in making a marine tank thrive... look into this as well as the filtration would be my advice. Of course this is just a few hints to help you put together a nice tank from the very beginning... Unfortunately I didnt have this type advise when I set up my first tank in the early 90's. It took me several years to finally burn out and give up in frustration but it was all due to the bad setup and my lack of planning.

Hope this helps

[dillonsshop]

Thanks for all the input. I am still wavering on making my own wet/dry without at least seeing one in opperation. The idea of buying a setup system has occoured to me but I have not found what I think is a good "first timer's" setup. I just looked over the FOR SALE / TRADE area and there are some promising items there! The main reason I was looking at using a 55g is that I have one that I used for freshwater. But as far as I can tell the only thing I can use is the tank and stand. What is meant by a sump/fuge skimmer vs wet/dry skimmer? I thought they were one and the same. I know that sometimes the skimmer is part of the wet/dry or can be placed on the back of the tank but is that a design issue or choise issue or something else. ALL THE HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!

[GaryP]

Dillon,

I would recommend you look into a 75 gal. instead of a 55. The footprint is only 6 inches wider but it makes the world of difference in what you do with the tank. The cost is not that much different either.

[dillonsshop]

Thanks for the advice Gary. I am trying to find a setup (read tank,stand, wet/dry, skimmer, lights, etc.) that somebody grew out of. Maybe even 100g? Just need more info and just the right circumstances.

[GaryP]

Keep an eye on the for sale forum here. You'll find something eventually. I'll sell you my 75 gal. if you buy me a 240 gal. Sound like a fair deal?

[dillonsshop]

Not really. :roll BUt I'll keep that in mind.

[GaryP]

I think you need to decide what you ant in the tank before you make a decision on filtration. Whether you are going to use a wet dry will also depend on your stocking levels. I don't use anything except a skimmer on either of my tanks.

[dillonsshop]

THe wife says we want some pretty fish, pretty plant things, and some of those pretty red shrimp things. I say lets start with the idea that we will want to expand and its better to get better equipment to start with than to try to constantly play catch-up. I want see happy fish in as close to their natural environment as possible within reason.

[GaryP]

Fish aren't really the problem. Most fish are pretty tolerant of less than pristine water quality to some extent. Its the corals that are more of an issue. The same applies to lights. Some corals need almost no light, some need very intense lights.

[jaded]

I think your taking GaryP's advice all wrong (unless I'm wrong). It's not about one setup being better than the other. It's whats best for the job at hand. If I asked what vehicle is best... some would say porsche, lamborgini, etc... thats great unless you need a vehicle to haul rocks then you would have a $250,000 car that can't haul rocks worth a crap.

Different envronments have different needs... the tank your talking about sounds to me like the basic reef that many of us began with. No SPS, a few LPS, lots of mushrooms and zoos, a few fish and other inverts. If thats the case then get yourself a nice sump, fuge, fill the tank with LR and LS add the biggest skimmer you can, pop on some PC or T5 lighting and maybe a few powerheads or a Tunze and your pretty well set up.

If you go to the lfs and see a morish idol and Purple Tipped Acropora and you just gotta have em' then thats a whole different thing all together.

anyway... its a really good idea to go to the store and/or search on line for the types of animals your going to buy in the future, then design around their needs. I know thats not as much fun as just doing it, but the reason all these experts say to do it that way is because of their own experiences. Just remember that you will be locked into the type of tank you start, so start smart

[dillonsshop]

Ok. I was avoiding that topic (lights). I figure that most of the corals I like are going to need intense lights. As every one I've seen in display only tanks at LFS have them. Even though they are expensive and hot I'm sure that is what I'll need because that is THE LAW according to Murphy.

[jim1000]

An other thing to concider when switching from a fresh water tank to salt is what kind if any, medicinal med or dips you have used as some are very harmful to salt water criters and fish-corals and can never really be cleand out.

Jim

[Dozer]

Dillon- I started out with my 55 freshwater tank converted to salt. So we started this adventure in exactly the same place. Less than two years later I have a 125g in my living room- that I bought from another MAAST member used at a very reasonable price- and am using the 55 as the sump/fuge underneath the 125. I know it seems like a lot to think about right now, but you are doing the right thing. So many people jump in and buy right away and later regret a lot of those purchases (I'll include myself in this). First thing I would do is step back and be honest with yourselves. Is this your first attempt at the hobby? Most people that try it (especially those that make it to a board like this and care about doing it the right way as you seem to) get addicted and want to go bigger later. There are some choices you can make that will enable you to go bigger later and still use a lot of what you set up with the 55. For example, the 55 is 4 feet long, right? For lighting you could start out with one nice 250W metal halide DE pendant. Talk to Greg Houston (his screen name is 360reef) and I know for a fact he can get you a really nice one for a real fair price (I recently bought two so I know). It would be plenty of light to start out with on a 55 gal. Then later on, if/when you go to a bigger tank you can just add another pendant (or two or three, depending on how big you upgrade) and still use the old one too. That's just one example.

Also, none of us know your home situation as well as you, of course. Do you live in a house, apartment? Own vs. rent? Planning on moving soon? Where do you plan on putting it in your place? I think these questions might help you decide on just setting up your 55 for your first attempt or jumping into something bigger right away. One thing you should know about saltwater tanks is that bigger does not necessarily mean harder. In fact in most cases it is the opposite. The more water volume you have in a system, the easier it generally is to keep that system stable. The temp. and pH and salinity and things like that will "swing" less dramatically in a system with more water. I don't want to beat that point to death, but if you don't know what I mean just ask and I'll explain more. The point is that when you are new, logic would tell you to start off with something small and later when you're more expert you can get a 100+gallon setup- when in fact a 100+ gallon setup is much easier to keep your animals happy in than say a 10 or 20 gallon setup. I have never attempted something real small, I think it would be really hard for me. Of course the flip side is that the larger the tank, the more expensive all the accompanying equipment will be. Bigger pumps, more live rock, more lighting, etc. A 55 gallon is kind of right on the borderline in my opinion as far as being easy/hard to keep stable for a beginner. I think you could definitely have success with it.

Being new, I would still love to see you buy a setup from somebody on this board that is selling the whole thing (don't worry about wasting your 55. Later this can make a great sump or a great second species specific tank). I actually have two old 55's- one is my sump/fuge for my 125 the other is in my den with freshwater African Cichlids (some old habits are hard to break :D ). I guarantee you will save money buying a whole system that way and you'll likely buy from someone who will even give you some help setting it up- some tips and things that they were doing. I bought mine from another member- Kaiser- and he and I used to send PM's back and forth constantly when I was setting it up. But, if you decide to set up the 55, it can be great, and we'll help you out.

Hope any of this rambling helps (is it pretty obvious I've got some time off work lately :D ? ).

[dillonsshop]

Mike- thanks for the rambling! This is the type of info that I need. I am looking at Alex's 110g tall with great intrest. I would really like to find something like the 125g from houston, where somebody just wanted out of the situation or plans a major upgrade where I can get EVERYTHING! But I digress; I still have constraints on the area I can put the tank. There is 5ft between two enteranes into my livingroom, and the way my bar shelf is set up the canopy cann't be taller than 5ft 7in. And no I'm not moving the bar. I want to be able to mix a drink while feeding so I can enjoy both at the same time. BUt again I digress. All the reading I've been dooing tells me to figure out what I want in the tank first. So must look at picture books and internet pics and lfs. Thanks for the experience info.

-Dillon

[jaded]

your doing the right thing Dillon... good luck with your research and let us know what your plans for the tank are. You'll get much more specific advise