manifold question (plumbing)

[jaded]

Most of you have seen my plans for the return manifold on the 135rr. It's up and running, but the only way I can use this sump is going to be at a much lower flow to and from the tank than I was hoping.

Question:
Can I use the manifold for the return from the sump and the closed loop, or do they have to be seperate?

http://paddletexas.com/images/temp_images/manifold.jpg

I think closed loop is the only way I'm going to get to SPS flow in this tank :(

[scuba_steveo]

Then it would not be a "closed" loop

[WolfReef]

i prefer low flow through the sump and high in tank flow. Petes closed loop is awesome!!!!!!!1

[jaded]

Hmmm semantics... can I use a manifold for return from the sump and the "semi" closed loop?

[dow]

jaded, what kind of tank are you using it for? If for SPS, you'll need to turn the tank water over, depending on who you read, between 10 and 20 times/hour. With a 135 gallon tank, that's between 1350 and 2700 gph, and if you do that through the manifold, that's going to give you hurricane type water movement in your sump. I was playing with the same idea for my 65, but after considering it and talking to some folks both here at reefcentral, I've drilled the tank for a closed loop. The closed loop will feed the manifold, and the overflow on my tank will feed the sump. For the sump, I'm shooting for about 5X tank volume per hour. According to what I've read, this should be good for skimming and for the fuge.

HTH.

[jaded]

but the only way I can use this sump is going to be at a much lower flow to and from the tank than I was hoping


Your so right... thats why this post is asking about the plumbing of a closed loop... The bubbles and noise created by the flow through the sump has forced me to restricted the flow back to the tank dramatically... The softies will love it, and for now it's just fine, but my plans for the tank definately include SPS, probably strickly SPS. That's why I said


I think closed loop is the only way I'm going to get to SPS flow in this tank


My question is can I use the manifold picutred above for both returns or will that cause a problem?

[dow]

Well, the short answer is, I don't think so. You could certainly plumb them together, but the stronger pump might overposer the weaker pump.

[jaded]

yeah... I was thinking about the head pressure to the dart, but I think your right. I guess I will need to make a seperate inflow from the sump and use the manifold for the closed loop. It's the smart way, but sure like the lazy, cheap way!!!

-****-

[Tim Marvin]

My SPS tanks turn over 50X per hour. The polyps are jumping out of the skeleton and growth is explosive. I was doing about 20X for a long time and thought I was doing well.... I was a little afraid of this kind of current at first, but now I am sold. I am running a Dart and tunze 6080 stream on an 80 gallon.

[dwdenny]

see now the 28X turnover doesn't sounds so bad in my 29g now does it jaded.LOL

[Tim Marvin]

Even my softies and zoos seem to be doing better in this current. The Blastos on the bottom are open larger than ever and one dead spot has grown completely back over a one month period.

[pickle311]

glad you posted that Tim. I'm setting up my 120 and will have 45-50x turnover. That's just reassurance that I'm going with the right ammount of flow.

[jaded]

Is my math correct? 135x50=6750 gph?

dwdenny: I thought I read that you had 28x plus another 786gph for the close loop. That still sounds like a lot to me, but clearly I'm wrong!!!

How can I judge the amount actually going to the tank from my dart?

plumbing:
Sequance Dart @ 60" head pressure should run ~2700gph
60¾" to water level from pump level
1.5" PVC pipe from pump to manifold
2 90°'s
1 ball valve at a little over 50% restricted (~60°)
manifold is 1" PVC with 6 3/4" loc-line outs

Just before the ball valve there is a tee to the skimmer... it is reduced to 1" and is running wide open. I'm sure the skimmer is getting a great deal of the water the pump has to offer, but I don't know how to judge it.

changes since this picture include adding a ball valve just after the flex tube to the skimmer and cutting the ball valve to the tank down another 10-20° (clockwise)
http://paddletexas.com/images/temp_images/sump_in_action.jpg

Maybe a tunze system isn't such an expense after all, but I sure would like to have some directional flow from that manifold... right now it barely blows the polyps on my devils hand and thats about 4" away from one outlet

[eric]

I'm only going to get you a little closer (I've been attempting the calculations for my system too) Maybe at least a bunch to think about.

All those fittings, including the coupling and horizontal lengths of pipe add a lot of head loss due to friction. I started to do some math for you and got all sidetracked. I'm not sure how much head you add because it's based on the flow rate, the higher the flow the more those elbows, etc slow it down. You could easily have 6 more feet of head than the vertical difference. It's not that much because you have flow. But each of those slow you down more. But as the flow slows down, the friction of the fittings affects it less.

You can find a chart on the web that will show you the head loss due to friction per 100' (or look in a pocket ref)

I don't know if this makes sense, but I'm thinking about sitting down and trying to come up with some stuff that will be meaningful to us piping tanks like you and I are doing.

You could always rig something up to measure how much water you're pumping by measure water level changes. Lower the water level in the tank (below the overflow, gotta take that out of the picture), fill the sump as much as you can, calculate the water volume per inch in your tank. Start the pump and determine how much volume reached the tank in a certain time period.

[jaded]

thats a good idea eric... I was concidering some sort of meter attachment I could add to the PVC but logistically thats just not going to happen even if I did have the meter.

I think I'll just measure the rate at which it fills up on my next water change. All I need to do is keep the return section of the sump filled (buckets will do the trick) and let her rip. The math after that should elementary.

thats good thinking eric, thanks

P.S. does 6750gph sound right???

[z28pwr]

In my opnion I wouldn't run 20 X your water volume through your sump. I would reduce that to about 10 - 15 and run a closed loop or some Tunze pumps to create some serious water movement in the aquarium with low electricity consumption which equals less heat.

Just my .2 cents.