hot, ich'y problem

[jaded]

Severe temperature swing in progress… getting ich’y in there!!!

I recently noticed that my hippo showed signs of small white spots that were raised from the skin, like a small pimple on the otherwise smooth skin. The spots are mainly on just one side, which I thought was really unlike ich so I thought I'd check the water and watch him closely.

The water checked out a bit high on a couple of things but not so high that I panicked… I thought it could be anything, even spots from a recent cleaner shrimp servicing.
ammonia: .25
nitrate: 10
nitrite: 0
ph: 8.2/8.3

Today I got home from work to find that the hippo hasn't changed but the glass was quite frosted with reddish green... while I was magfloating I noticed the tomato clown had a small white blotch on the left pectoral fin and another on one of the pelvic fins, nothing like ich but still foreign. After a change of clothes and a quick dinner I went back to gazing at the tank when I noticed the Scopas had small white pimples all over him.

Now I'm freakin out!!!

the water tests
ammonia: .25
nitrate: 20

It’s only during the course of writing this post that I realized that I have made changes that could be the problem… and while I was making this list I checked the temp in the tank. It’s right at 90°

I recently added a 3rd MH and 2 48” T5’s I watched the temp closely for several days without any change at all… I was pleasantly surprised that the tank stayed right at 82°. After a few days of watching the steady temp I gave up checking. Now I’m posting in the emergency section :(

Most corals look good in the tank. GSP, Seabea anemone, Xenia, Bubble, Mushrooms, Zoos… all look great!!! The only thing that seems a bit “wilted” is the colt and devils hand.

I’ve put 2 oscillating fans on the tank for now. I haven’t done a water change in case that would just stress things out worse… is there anything else I should be doing???

[jaded]

arrgh

[GaryP]

Noticed how humid it is today? That's the source of your heat spike and in turn the Ich. Humidity goes up, evaporation goes down, tank temp. goes up.

Try running your AC for a while to drop the humidity in your house.

[Tim Marvin]

The fans will bring you down. 84 degrees is not too high yet, but you did the right thing by adding fans.

[NaCl_H2O]

If your temp is REALLY 90, and Nitrate 20, I would say you have a near catastrophic situation. You gotta get the temp down, but slowly - shut down some lights, keep the fans going, and maybe even a small ziplock of ice in the sump? While that's going on, I would suggest a couple of 15-20% water changes over the next two days.

But first, check the temp with at least two diferent instruments before you freak out.

[Tim Marvin]

Was that 90? I read it wrong......That is definately too high!

[jaded]

well the way Im reading that pic above its 90°... please oh please tell me Im wrong!!! I'll be the happiest wrong guy ever.

where do you see 84° Tim??? I sure hope your right

[Tim Marvin]

I was reading it wrong. At first glance I was reading the top of the yellow as 80....

[NaCl_H2O]

Looks like 90 to me! But that is really, really high :o

Do you have another thermometer for a cross check?

[alexwolf]

jade, i have a digital one you can borrow to check the accuracy.

[jaded]

I found a digital thermometer that shows 87.4°

my house is 81° and its humid... I turned on the A/C, added another large oscillating fan and killed all the MH lights, with only the T5's running.

What can I do in the future to prevent this from happening? Of course I'll be installing fans on the canopy, I should have done it even with the solid temp after the MH install (bang head on desk) but the weather is bound to change so quickly that I have the heater on the night before and the day ends up in the 80's

[jaded]

not normally no... its just been cold at night so the thermostat was set on heat... so today it got hot and humid and the house did too

since i live in Texas I figure this will definately happen again!!! You know what they say about Tx weather "slip on the ice, fall in the mud, get up and dust yourself off" So I'm wondering if this is something that is going to happen everytime the A/C isnt set correctly or will a couple of 4" fans keep it under control

[NaCl_H2O]

Heater, hum ... check the heater to see if it may have failed and is running continuously?

[jaded]

Well I guess I'll just have to be more careful

86.3 and dropping

[jaded]

this seems like a good way to plot the speed that the temp goes down so I'm going to continue to post temps... ignore if your not interested!!!

85.1°

[NaCl_H2O]

Wow, you might want to slow down ... 5 degrees in about an hour so far!

You are getting close to a good temp, might want to hold it at 84'ish for awhile?

What does everyone think?

[jaded]

I was thinking the same thing, I just stopped the big fan.

thanks for the help!!!

[Dozer]

Just a couple things off the top of my head in case they help. I hope it all works out ok:
- Don't know anything about your return pump, does it run hot? I recently pointed a small desk fan at my Iwaki and it cooled it down considerably, and knocked the tank temp down about a degree on average I think. (I stole that idea from someone else on MAAST actually).
- Fans in the canopy and/or pointed at the sump can only help.
- Lastly, did you catch NaCl's comment about possible heater malfunction? The only reason I ask is that our house definitely occasionally gets over 80, and the tank never cranks up over 90- in fact I've never seen it get over 83-84 tops even when the house gets hot. Granted I don't have Halides yet, but my PC's are right over the water and aren't cool. Plus I know many others on here run Halides and I don't remember seeing someone say they had it spike like that. Is it possible there was a heater problem, or is the tank really close to a window, door or under a skylight or something?

Again, though, maybe the Halides make all the difference heatwise!

[jaded]

thanks for the help Dozer... I should have addressed the heater question earlier, but its an easy answer. I dont have a heater, or at least not one in the tank right now. I never installed it after the move 2 weeks ago. This has to be a hot house/humidity problem. i just didnt concider what a few degrees would do with the addition of the 3rd MH and the humidity. I will have fans installed asap and I'll be much more careful about having the A/C set in the future

83.4° shutting down the other big fan and closing the tank hood. I hope I didnt drop it to quickly, I guess time will tell

is there anything I can do if the white spots do turn out to be ich?

[NaCl_H2O]

is there anything I can do if the white spots do turn out to be ich?

Just keep them fed well, use a little Garlic if they need to be tempted. Might want to run some charcoal, the stressed corals could be putting out toxins.
Keep up a normal light cycle to the extent possible.
Do a water change as soon as is feasible.

Glad it is settling down - worse than having a new baby in the house, huh?

Be patient, only time will tell ... and let us know!

[alton]

Nacl H20 is right on track on curing ICH get rid of the stress and add Garlic. I have a Trane Dual Temp Thermostat. My heat is set on 69 and my AC is set on 76. At night the heat comes on, and during the day the AC. Today and tomorrow are prime examples. Today is suppose to clime to 90 and tomorrow morning drop to 50.

[GaryP]

I used to keep a 3 liter bottle of frozen water in my freezer for temp emrgencies, which I had somewhat frequently before installing new fans.

Now I have excess cooling fans and I can plug in an extra set when the humidity is high and I am having problems like you did this week.

The nitrate thing is a seperate issue. I would address that with water changes, making sure your skimmer is tuned and you are getting the most out of it, and running carbon. I would also evaluate your situation as far as a DSB since a lot of the denitrification takes place there. The nitrate issue may get worse before it gets better because of some die off from the temp spike. Stay on top of it. At that level you are going to be losing snails and other inverts.

[jaded]

I'll keep as close an eye on the tank as I can... I'd take the day off work but thats not possible.



The nitrate thing is a seperate issue. I would address that with water changes, making sure your skimmer is tuned and you are getting the most out of it, and running carbon. I would also evaluate your situation as far as a DSB since a lot of the denitrification takes place there. The nitrate issue may get worse before it gets better because of some die off from the temp spike. Stay on top of it. At that level you are going to be losing snails and other inverts.



The nitrate problem could be a result of many factors, I'm not exactly sure how much to feed this tank so I've been experimenting around with that. The flow of the tank is so low that I have huge dead spots where food seems to drop immediately to the bottom. I've probably been overfeeding to compensate.

In order to help with the flow I decided to go with an external pump, which means a new sump and plumbing. The sump and plumbing are done and ready to be installed all I need now is the pump which comes in on Friday. The old sump is a wetdry with 1 tower (bio-balls). I began removing small amounts of bio-balls on Monday AM, I noticed the Nitrate Mon PM (10) and again last night at (20). I only removed about 20 bb's (maybe 10%)

The protien skimmer is small and almost impossible to tune. It loses effeciency as the water evaporates. So a new skimmer is plumbed in and ready for the new pump. I'll do my best to get it running right for the next few days, but it's not producing bubbles by the time I get off work due to the changing water level

[6LINE]

Noticed how humid it is today? That's the source of your heat spike and in turn the Ich. Humidity goes up, evaporation goes down, tank temp. goes up.

Try running your AC for a while to drop the humidity in your house.

Thank you Gary!! This is the best and easiest way to understand the heating and cooling of the aquarium, for myself atleast.

[jaded]

Can I get the garlic at HEB or is it special stuff for aquariums? How do I use it; quantity, frequency, etc.

BTW, wake up temp was 80.4°

I figure that the suction cup thermometer is running ~2° high so the water got the roughly 88° for a short time. I remember a quick glance at the thermometer at around 7:30 pm and it didnt alarm me so I assume it was within range or very close, I just cant remember exactly what it said, but Im sure if it would have been very high I would have reacted.

I've set the fans on a timer to come on with the MH's and the A/C is set at 76°, as long as the program doesnt take over the [HOLD TEMP] if that happens the temp is set on 78°. I definately think its time for the dual climate thermostat

DSB... the new sump has a fuge (16x16x12)13 gallons but I've heard mixed reviews on DSB. Do they crash???

[CD]

Can I get the garlic at HEB or is it special stuff for aquariums? How do I use it; quantity, frequency, etc.


I use Garlic Xtreme - you should be able to find it at the LFS. I know it seems kinda pricey (I think it's about 17. bucks a bottle), but it's *highly* concentrated, so you don't have to use much. I only use two drops per day in their food. You could get food grade garlic at HEB (Tim Marvin mentioned it in another thread, so you may want to ask him what type/brand he used), but I'd be willing to bet that the Garlic Xtreme is much more concentrated. ;)

Wendy

[Instar]

Temperature is only one of your problems. You have NH3 in there and this needs solved as well as the temperature. That means bacteria cultures to get rid of it and keep it at 0. I have had temp swings and no ick problems and never use garlic. So this means for my fish, that garlic is just not all that necessary in fish biology. With all the high protein foods and vitamin fortification we have now, these foods are plenty rich enough already without adding something else. Some people's fish won't eat as well when garlic is added and others report premature deaths in flames, copperbands and other fish, who have been using garlic. Garlic - Its a craze anyway, regardless. Have had my fish (tangs and butterflies) for years, no problems and no garlic. Nitrites and ammonia readings need to go to 0.

[DeletedAccount]

I was surprised no one mentioned the ammonia before now, Larry.... As I read the post that was my first concern - then the nitrites, then the temp....

Glad you seem to have a handle on the temp, though!

[jaded]

I'll evaluate a water change tonight when I get home... I have no idea what will happen with the temp, but it should be pretty solid now

If everyone and everything looks calm I'll do a 18gallon change. The levels may be caused from the bioball removal but I think its probably a combination of that and the overfeeding. A change in that habit and a few water changes over the next few days should get it under control (i hope)

[jaded]

ammonia: .25
nitrate 20

both fans where running today... the temp is below normal @79.4° but I'm not going to mess with that now. The tank looks great everything except the devils hand is open and healthy looking and all the fish are accounted for so I'm going to do a water change.

post if you disagree

[jaded]

waters mixed to 1.024, the heater is in there warming it to match the aquarium water temp (no need to stress anymore)

Everything looks so good I'm doubting the tests!!! I have no idea how old this test kit is... anyone with a good test kit live near me???

-Wetmore and Thousand Oaks

[NaCl_H2O]

I missed the ammonia reading! Definately proceed with the water change! But there has to be a cause for the Ammonia & Nitrate, and it is not related to the temp problem. You said you may be overfeeding, that's a good place to start to manage the N-Cycle.

[jaded]

I've also removed about 10% of the bioballs becuase Im going to be installing the new sump this weekend (if the tank settles down)

150+ lbs of live rock & 2-3" LS... I really wouldnt think that removing 20-25 bio-balls would make this kind of difference. I'm not sure about the tests, but if they are right, then there has to be something going on. The glass was fairly clear (no more magfloat film than normal) and the bubbles that had appeared on most surfaces are mostly gone (I think this was just result of adding water to quickly to the baffless sump). I'm not sure what else it could be!!! I havent added anything to the tank beyond the initial move and moving a few piece of LR in more than a week ago

[GaryP]

Bioballs do not cause excess nitrate. They are doing what they are supposed to do. Nitrates are cuased by a break down in the nitrogen cycle where there is insufficient anoxic bacteria to complete the final stage in the nitrogen cycle. Anoxic bacteria exist in a DSB or in deep pores in LR.

Removing bioballs will also increase your ammonia. The key to solving your feeding problem, which I am sure the source of your water quality problems is to go to smaller, more frequent feedings. If there is food getting to the bottom then you are overfeeding. Just try feeding a small amount, waiting a few minutes and feeding again. You can do this 2-3 times a day. Not only will this help your water quality issues, but it will be healthier for your fish.

[jaded]

The key to solving your feeding problem, which I am sure the source of your water quality problems is to go to smaller, more frequent feedings.


I'm finding that the only way to keep the food off the bottom is to do exactly that... I usually feed a pinch of flake while a block of frozen brine and a chip off a flat pack of mysis is thawing and I shoot that all in at once... This is almost undoubtedly the main problem... I just cant see how removing such a small amount of bb's would allow such an imbalance in my N cycle

P.S. I am getting rid of the bb's because I believe that they do become "nitrate factories" if they aren't maintained

[GaryP]

I just cant see how removing such a small amount of bb's would allow such an imbalance in my N cycle

P.S. I am getting rid of the bb's because I believe that they do become "nitrate factories" if they aren't maintained

The purpose of the bioballs is exactly to be nitrate factories. The alternative is to have a buildup of ammonia and nitrite which is MUCH MUCH worse.,

Here's how the nitrogen cycle works.

Organic waste >>> ammonia >>> nitrite >>> nitrate >>> nitrogen

A break at any step in this process will cause a buildup. The problem is not how to reduce nitrate, the problem is how to increase the efficiency of the final step (denitrification) so that the nitrate is quickly converted to nitrogen. That's where the anoxic bacteria I mentioned earlier comes in.

[NaCl_H2O]

I have 20 gallons of Bio-Balls in my system, and a 2'x3' piece of mechanical filter material. Amm, Nitrite, and Nitrate have been rock solid zero for 6 months!

[GaryP]

One thing I would suggest for feeding any frozen foods is to allow them to thaw in water, then filter the solid food with a brine shrimp net. This accomplishes two things. It allows you to better control portion size. You can put it back in the refrigerator and feed the rest later in the day or even the next day. It also removes the water the food is frozen in, that I think contains a lot of nutrients that has a negative impact on water quality.

[GaryP]

I have 20 gallons of Bio-Balls in my system, and a 2'x3' piece of mechanical filter material. Amm, Nitrite, and Nitrate have been rock solid zero for 6 months!

My opinion is that the idea that bioballs cause nitrate buildups is the aquarium equivalent of an old wive's tale. I've even had folks at LFS tell me that. I think you really have to understand the microbiology of a waste treatment system and how the nitrogen cycle works to see where the problem is.

Yes, bioballs do produce nitrates. However, the purpose of bioballs is to efficiently process ammonia and nitrite to form nitrate. This in turn is used by macro to form more macro OR to be processed by anoxic bacteria to form nitrogen (and nitrous oxide).

[Instar]

Well, rapid cooling especially at night causes ick. You have some distance to go yet in overall tank health. Also, rapid cooling from 90 to 79 causes bleaching. When you change water this will also clarify the pigments from the water and allow more light penetration to enhance the bleaching. I wish there was better news than this and I really hope you escape all this without anything more than a little stress on your part.

Ammonia and the whole cycle is easy to solve with a good bacteria culture from your lfs. Overfeeding has nothing to do with bacterial decomposition rates. Those cultures ramp up to match the need. They have a lag growth phase and an exponential growth phase. Their respiration rates work in similar fasion. I've been "overfeeding" (whatever that really is) for years; its not a problem with a refugium, skimmer and water changes combined with a good bacteria population. I take no minimizing precautions such as draining food. Thats just simply not worth my effort.

There you go GaryP, discrediting those myths and old wive's tales again. We want to keep those things alive to humor the bacteriostatisticians amoungst us. :w00t

[GaryP]

http://www.marineland.com/reports/report1.asp

[jaded]

Thanks for all the help on my current situation!!! I've just finished the water change and the tank temp is being warmed to 80.4 with a small (150w) heater so it should go slowly... the heater should help with night temp swings

now for the desention:
I appriciate the theory of bio-balls and trickle filtration but I also know that bio-balls capture and hold onto solid waste. Of course solids break down pretty quick in this situation but eventually you will end up with a negative instead of a positive, just like filter floss that isnt maintained. I dont believe the same is true with LR and LS

It's totally possible that I'm wrong on this but I feel like I've made the right decision going sump/fuge/skimmer instead of the trickle filter that the tank originally came with. Now if you guys are talking about bio-balls being totally submerged in your sump thats a whole different issue and I really wouldnt see the point of that at all. I absolutely know that just about everyone here knows more about this passion/hobby than I do, but I still feel strongly in the research that I've done on this particular topic being solid

just my thoughts

[jaded]

http://www.marineland.com/reports/report1.asp

After reading this I'm not sure what it has to do with the topic at hand... maybe I'm just confused!!! It happens more often than I'd like

[NaCl_H2O]

There are many filter configurations that are successful. Pick one that you like (as you have), that has been used successfully by others, research it (as you have), and go for it!

The sump/fuge/skimmer combination is a very realistic approach.

For me, I went with a little bit of everything: sump, fuge, skimmer, wet/dry filter + filter floss, DSB, lots of LR, and UV.

[jaded]

you built a room!!! if I had the resources I'd be right with you :) nice behind the scenes pictorial you posted awhile back!!!

[Kylaohhh]

Something you may want to consider is a digital dual control thermostat. Set the heater where you want it and the A/C where you want it and forget it. They aren't too expensive and much cheaper than replacing everything in your tank. They are pretty easy to install and can be found at Home Depot I think. It sure helps during the fall and spring when temps can swing from cold to hot in a minute flat.

[jaded]

yeah that was mentioned a bit earlier and I agree its a great idea and one I'm going to have to invest in!!!

[GaryP]

I appriciate the theory of bio-balls and trickle filtration but I also know that bio-balls capture and hold onto solid waste. Of course solids break down pretty quick in this situation but eventually you will end up with a negative instead of a positive, just like filter floss that isnt maintained. I dont believe the same is true with LR and LS

Why don't you think that LS and LR accumulate detritus. As for the trickle system accumulating solids... that's true. That's also why most of them that I have seen as designed to use a floss filter before the bioballs. The problem I often see with any sort of physical filter is that its not changed or cleaned often enough and the stuff that is on it simply decays in place rather than being exported through cleaning. Its ends up being the same thing as letting it accumulate in the bioballs.

On the other hand, wouldn't you want solids to be deposited in an area where you have the highest biological activity, as opposed to caugt in a dead spot in the LR where there is minimal flow and minimal oxygenation? In my experience, a lot of nuisance problems (hair algae, cyanobacteria, & flatwoms to name a few) can be attributed to this sort of detritus buildup.

OK, now you can ask how many wet/dry systems I run. The answer is none, unless you count the biowheel on a nano. I just feel that they are redundant in my type of system that has fairly low bioload, a DSB, and lots of LR. A lot of the heavy bioload systems I have seen do use a wet dry as part of their system and that makes perfect sense.

I was simply commenting on the misconception that wet/dry are the cause of high nitrates. Removing bioballs will not solve a nitrate, much less an ammonia problem. The article I posted was just to provide some basic info on the microbiological systems that exist in an aquarium waste treatment system. That system may contain a biowheel, bioballs, LR, DSB, or a multitude of other components. They all come back to the same thing, providing habitant for the bugs to do the steps I mentioned earlier in the nitrogen cycle. If there is a buildup of any of the compounds in the nitrogen cycle its because there is not a sufficient bacterial culture or microbial habitat for that culture to process the volume of waste being produced in the previous step in the cycle. That's what I meant by a break down in the cycle. In the case of nitrates that may not necessarily be just bacteria. It could also be plants. Macro and micro algae both process nitrate very efficiently. That's the basis of how a fuge works as part of the waste treatment system. Things like nitrate and phosphate act as fertilizers for macroalgal growth in the fuge.

OK, I'll shut up now and go to bed.

[don-n-sa]

OK, I'll shut up now and go to bed.

Ok you may have went to bed, but I know that you didn't shut up. :D

[Polkster13]

As the appointed President of the newly formed GaryP fan club, I must object to that last comment.

Hey Gary; got your back, man.

[GaryP]

TY Polkster. I appreciate ya man.

I'll admit that this hobby is as much art as science. We never really understand a lot of why something works or doesn't work. In the past few years the science has started to catch up and there are some rational reasons for doing the things we do. Unfortunately, some of the old myths are still hanging on. That's where I see groups like MAAST providing a very useful service. That is, the dissemination of good, technically valid information. As I mentioned before, some of the less knowledgeable LFS staffers can be just as guilty of preading these wive's tales as some of the "old school" hobbyists.

I can remember running salt water tanks with NO bulbs and undergravel filters 25 yrs. ago. The equipment and technology has certainly changed but sometimes the information out there hasn't. Sometimes these concepts have a tendency to hang on. I know I have learned more in the last year and a half from being exposed to you guys than I have in the previous 9 yrs. I have been actively involved in the hobby. My only goal is to help some of the others coming along and hopefully prevent them from making some of the same trial and error mistakes I did along the way.

[Instar]

The problem I often see with any sort of physical filter is that its not changed or cleaned often enough and the stuff that is on it simply decays in place rather than being exported through cleaning.

Actually all of the rumors of peaks and valleys associated around bio balls are not entirely true. Bacterial films have a life expectancy. Periodically they slough off because they get so thick and old the large bacterial populations cycles. The old slimy layer is shed to die off and is replaced by a new young colony of bacteria, ready to start the process over again. It happens in sewage treatment plants too unless they do something to purposely cycle the bacterial film on the trickle filters. In theory, after the bacterial film matures, the slough off should be a regular event and not have so much build up in between cycles so everything stays functional. Put an inadequate bacterial population together with all the waste proteins of a marine tank and the film coagulates the proteins. When this mess sloughs off for the cycle, there is a natural spike in the nitrogen cycle. Without a constant measuring monitor, testing at certain times if this cycle will look like a spike in things like Nitrite. Since bio balls are so smooth, when such a cycle takes place, its all or nothing. Most other mechanical filters, even skimmers, need regular weekly or more cleanings to work properly as Gary says in the quote.

[GaryP]

Sloughing of the biofilm can be a good thing too. A lot of our soft corals such as leathers and mushrooms are thought to feed on bacteria that are in suspension in the water.

Bacteria basically exist in two forms in any environment. The majority of the bacteria exist in the biofilm where they are embedded within a layer of carbohydrate gel they produce called glycocalyx and grow on some sort of substrate such as bioballs, LR, or sand. The glycocalyx is what makes biofilms "slimy". As they grow and become larger they are sloughed off by mechanical agitation produced by flow. These pieces of biofilm, which can be microscopic, become part of the second form that they exist in. These are called the planktonic population. The planktonic populations are not very metabolically active. They are basically "pioneers" floating around looking for new unpopulated areas to settle and populate and produce new biofilms. Such unpopulated areas are not really available in a closed system like an aquarium. As Larry said, they may simply die, decay, and result in a small nutrient spike. The same type thing can happen with some nuisance algaes such as hair algae. This is what I referred to in my talk at last month meeting as "nutrient cycling." Because hair algaes produce a larger amount of biomass than bacteria, its more of a problem when you have a major algae bloom. In the case of bacteria, the spike may be so small, or so short term that you never even see it. I think that's what Larry was referring to when he mentioned constant monitoring. I hope I didn't put words in your mouth Larry.

[jaded]

Removing bioballs will not solve a nitrate, much less an ammonia problem.


I agree... I think there is some miscommunication as to why I'm removing bio-balls... I currently have a 135 with 150+LR, LS, and a small ~10 trickle filter (bb tower), a very small hard to tune and high inefficient skimmer that I can get much out of at all.

I already have the new skimmer (32" dual beckett), sump/fuge (50 gallon), and pump (seq. dart) I want to install it for many reasons as soon as I can, but I don’t want to remove all the bio-balls at one time as they are a major bio-filtration device on my tank. So the logical thing is to remove small quantities of the bb's over a length of time.

Just to clear it up... I'm not removing bb's because I thing they are raising NH³/NH+4, NO³, NO² or anything else... Quite the contrary, I'm suggesting the bb removal could have a great deal to do with my spike in these nutrients! Whether the removal has anything to do with the spike is debatable, but one way or the other I have a lot invested in the new systems and they are going to be installed as soon as I can get these levels under control... speaking of levels

amm: slightly lower @ <.25
nitrate: slightly lower @ ~15

still in a danger zone so I will be home tonight checking the levels and probably doing another 18gallons

P.S. I'm not getting ****y with anyone, I'm only clarifying the situation. I think it might have gotten a bit confused. I REALLY APPRICIATE THE HELP!!!

[GaryP]

Just to clear it up... I'm not removing bb's because I thing they are raising NH³/NH+4, NO³, NO² or anything else... Quite the contrary, I'm suggesting the bb removal could have a great deal to do with my spike in these nutrients! Whether the removal has anything to do with the spike is debatable, but one way or the other I have a lot invested in the new systems and they are going to be installed as soon as I can get these levels under control... speaking of levels

I think you are doing exactly the right thing and I'm sure an improved skimmer will help greatly towards reducing your levels. I did misunderstand what you were say, thanks for clarifying. Removing the bioballs slowly is exactly the right way to go about it. That way, the bioload will be slowly shifted to other part of the systems such as the LR and LS. As Larry mentioned, the mechanical action of removing the bioballs may cause some "stuff" (bacteria & solids) to be released to the water.

To be honest, I used your original post to discuss some things that maybe weren't completely related to your situation. I just thought it was a good venue for talking about it because, as I said, there are a lot of misconception out there about bioballs and biological treatment in general. I wasn't really directing it at you. Please forgive me if you took it that way. That's what happens when I am sitting here bored after the Spurs game became a blow out. :) Sometimes I go off on a rant.

[jaded]

Heck no... keep it comin' brotha!!! I learn new things ever day!!!

since we are talking... I may have figured a cause for all this. Let me explain... I added filter floss and 2 "socks" of carbon above the tower when I moved the tank to my house ~2½ weeks ago. I removed these items just before this crisis. When I was removing the floss and carbon bags I noticed that the water was being diverted to the edges of the tower and not over the bioballs... almost all water was missing the bb's and just running around them. A day, maybe a day and a half later I tested to find the high levels. If the bb's were allowed to dry and die then removing the blockage at the top of the tower would have allowed for water to flush all the dead and diyinh bacteria into the system, or at least thats my theory...

What do you think my next move is? I will have the rest of the parts in tomorrow and the extra time to do the swtich out on my days off (sunday or monday).

[GaryP]

If your BBs weren't getting even flow that is highly likely. I would go ahead andd put the carbon back in somewhere, at least until you get your nitrate/ammonia spike under control. I use sock filters on my overflow hoses to add mechanical filtration for water clarity and nutrient export. These get changed out at least once a week. That's a double edged sword too because they are removing planktonic foods as well as detritus.

I think a lot of this may also be attributed to you moving your tank 1 1/2 weeks ago. If you mentioned that earlier I must have missed it. Its like your tank is cycling again. A lot of nutrients and detritus caught in the sand and LR are released as a result of the move. I've been there, I moved my tanks 3 times in 13 months. The algae bloom will probably be next. Be prepared to add a phosphate absorber and stock up on snail and hermits to control the algae as soon as the nitrate settles out.

As for what's next. Go ahead and get that new skimmer installed and crank it up wide open until things settle down. A fuge with some Chaetomorpha and a really deep DSB would be nice too.

[jaded]

so its full steam ahead then... which means yanking all the bb's at once and switching over to the sump/fuge and skimmer on sunday/monday

[gjuarez]

I ditched my canopy and setup a pendant instead. A lot of the heat got trapped inside the canopy, even with a fan. I raised the pendant like nine inches off the water level and my temperature is steady at 81 degrees. My tank enjoys all the open space to dismiss the heat. I think the valley might be a couple of degrees hotter than San Antonio. This was something that I had to do with summer coming. Do you have canopy or a pendant?

[GaryP]

I would recommend just adjusting your schedule so that the BB's are all gone by Sunday/Monday.

[jaded]

I would recommend just adjusting your schedule so that the BB's are all gone by Sunday/Monday.

to late!!!

I have a canopy qjuarez, but temp is under control, as a matter of fact with 2 fans I'm running a heater just to keep it constant. Now I just have to deal with the amm and nitrate.

[gjuarez]

WHy did my post barely appear today. (Canopy or pendant) I mentioned that way at the beginning of the thread. It is making look like a dork. Anyways, I do not use any type of mechanical filtration or bioligical filtration, well except for my protein skimmer (mechanical) and live rock (biological). Bomber, starboard bottom pioneer from RC, did not recommend bio balls because he thinks that detritus gathers there and with strong water flow and high levels of oxygen, it gets broken down very easily and goes back into our systems. For that same reason, he did not reccomed filter socks. Many people dont change their socks as often as they should and all that detritus turns into organics. I do not know if this is certain or not but it did make a lot sense to me. This theory was applied to a bare botton tank and I dont know if its the same for a DSB. Gary, did I misunderstand this guy who has tremendous credibility or did I miss something. Can you talk a bit about this?

[gjuarez]

I forgot to mention that occasionally I run a filter sock to make the water clear but it is never there more than a day.

[GaryP]

Bomber, starboard bottom pioneer from RC, did not recommend bio balls because he thinks that detritus gathers there and with strong water flow and high levels of oxygen, it gets broken down very easily and goes back into our systems. For that same reason, he did not reccomed filter socks. Many people dont change their socks as often as they should and all that detritus turns into organics. I do not know if this is certain or not but it did make a lot sense to me. This theory was applied to a bare botton tank and I dont know if its the same for a DSB. Gary, did I misunderstand this guy who has tremendous credibility or did I miss something. Can you talk a bit about this?

OK, detritus first. I mentioned this in another post. My logic here is that if detritus is going to settle, would you rather have it in a place with high oxygenation where it will be degraded rapidly or in a place with low oxygen and no flow? I vote for high oxygen and high flow. The alternative is for it to settle in your live rock where it will slowly decay and cause areas of low oxygen because of the biological oxygen demand produced by the waste decomposing. These are spots that are likely to result in breeding grounds for undesirable things like cyano and flatworms. Detritus is going to settle somewhere, its better in a place of your choosing. What makes detritus detritus is that it settle somewhere. It is primarily composed of poop, uneaten food, and stuff like algae that has been sloughed off. That's not to say that just because you have a wet/dry that you aren't going to have some detritus in your main tank. I make sure to stock my tank with detritivores to handle that. Things like hermits, nassarius snails, some starfish, bristle worms, and sand sifting cucumbers are good detritivores.

Most wet/drys I have seen are designed to have filter floss used upstream of the bioballs to catch the detritus. The one I have is set up so that filter floss is placed on the trickle tray over the bioball chamber. In addition, it has a sponge downstream of the bioballs to catch the biological slough coming from the bioballs.

OK next - physical filtration. He is correct in saying that physical filtration can result in nutrients. The key here is maintenance. I run filter socks in my tanks, but they get changed out at least once a week, usually more. They are usually clogged and not working within a few days and need to be changed. Any type of equipment you use can cause problems in your tank if not maintained properly. The two main reason for physical filtration are water clarity and nutrient export. By removing the detritus caught in the filter you are not allowing it to decay into nutrients. On the down side, the problem with filtration is that you are also removing some of the planktonic critters that your corals feed on, such as pods and algae. His logic on this is a little skewed IMO. If you don't remove it with a physical filter its going to settle somewhere and decompose anyway, isn't it? Its not going to go away if you don't use a filter. Again, as was the case with the bioballs, is it better to have it decay in a high flow area with a lot of oxygen, such as in a filter, or a low flow area with little oxygen, like in crevices in the LR.

Someone jump in here and tell me where the fault is with my logic?

Just an educational note: Biological Oxygen Demand is a term that refers to the oxygen used by bacteria when they are decomposing organic materials. If there is not an excess of oxygen, such as in a wet/dry, the oxygen level can get quite low (low Redox potential). This also has the effect of slowing down the decay of the material. Some nasty by products, such as hydrogen sulfide can also result from this type of slow decay. The whole key to any type of efficient waste treatment, whether it is a municipal plant, a septic tank, or an aquarium is speed. Break it down fast. That's why the state now requires aerobic (oxygenated) septic systems in most places. The type of bacteria that process waste the fastest require high oxygen levels. These bacteria do produce nitrates by a process called nitirification, but they are supposed to. The nitrates go through another step called denitrification by a different type of bacteria that live in low oxygen areas of the system.

[GaryP]

I think some people loose track of the idea that an aquarium is a piece of waste processing equipment. We are not trying to stop waste from being processed, rather we are trying to make sure it is processed as quickly and efficiently as possible. That's the whole purpose of aerobic systems such as bioballs, live sand, live rock, and biowheels.

Yes, its better if the waste can be completely removed from the system (export). However, that's simply not possible in most cases. One thing I forgot to mention is that organic waste needs to be converted from a solid to a water suspendible form before the skimmer can process it. A skimmer isn't going to remove anything that is laying on the bottom or caught in the bioballs. Bacterial action will break down the solids there to smaller chemicals that can be suspended in the water and removed in the skimmer.

I think a lot of people get hung up on this because they try to look at each piece of equipment seperately as opposed to looking at it from the stand point of the entire system. Each piece of equipment serves a different purpose and plays a role in the waste processing cycle.

[GaryP]

Here's another idea for you. Whenever I am cleaning the tank, and especially the overflows, a lot of detritus and algae gets stirred up and in the water. I always use a sock filter to catch this stuff. After I am done and the water has cleared up I change out the sock filter and put a fresh one on. This is almost instant export. I will also use a small powerhead, like a maxijet to flow out the detritus from the crevices in the LR. This gets sucked through the overflows and trapped in the sock filter as well. Sometimes you can use a small piece of tubing hooked to the powerhead to get down into some of the deeper crevices and caves.

OK, enough info. I've probably overloaded you.

[gjuarez]

No Gary, This is very good info. One thing I forgot to mention on Bombers theory is that you need a very efficient skimmer and get wet skimmate, prefferably a skimmer rated for a bigger tank. The live rock and the skimmer handle all the bioloads. A power head is placed on the bottom where there is no dead spots, and the detritus get transffered to the sump where it is quickly taken out by the skimmer. That is why he reccomends skimming wet, so a lot more junk can be taken out quicker before it dissolves. I know I am not stating this right and I am pretty sure I am missing something in the theory. This guy was the one who convinced me to go bare bottom. I will post the link to the thread so you can read it. You dont have to agree but it is very entertaining.

[gjuarez]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=f0365dceb18098c1d8ea7bb7dae60e35& threadid=223301&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

This thread is so cool and so long. It is probably the biggest thread ever. it is so entertaining I am going to read it again.

[GaryP]

One thing I have never understood about the theory behind bare bottom tanks is where denitrification takes place. I suppose if you have enough LR it can take up the slack, especially if you have LR with very good porosity. Or maybe the skimmer is so efficient that it removes the organic nitrogen waste before it gets to the inorganic nitrogen cycle. I'm just guessing here as I don't really have any experience running bare bottom.

[don-n-sa]

Man...that is a LONG thread.

Gary, according to the thread starter, it is the sandbed itself that produces most of the waste. After removing it, the skimmer and liverock actually dont have to work nearly as hard.

[GaryP]

Gary, according to the thread starter, it is the sandbed itself that produces most of the waste. After removing it, the skimmer and liverock actually dont have to work nearly as hard.

That's an interesting theory but I can't see the logic of it. I guess I will have to read the thread. The same logic would say that LR creates waste and we need to eliminate it too.

[don-n-sa]

I guess I will have to read the thread.

I hope you have an hour or so...the thread started in August of 2003 and is now 149 pages...thats alot of next buttons.

I read most of it and it makes sense to me for the most, part but you must have a low bio load to pull it off IMO.

The basic theory is to go bare bottom with vigorous flow in the display to keep organics/detritus in suspension until it reaches the sump, which is low flow, where it can settle and either be picked up by the skimmer of syphoned out manually.

I personally like the look of sand beds and I think fish and other livestock prefer it but I can't get a strait answer from them. I do want to say this though...I do not like the looks or smell of a DSB that is just left alone without any sandsifting critters to keep it from getting funky like Dr. Ron from R.C. says to do.

In my tank, I keep the sand bed stirred up and it stays clean.

[jaded]

UPDATE:

levels are on the downswing after holding steady at high levels for 3-4 days (30g water changes each day). All life in the tank loks happy and healthy:)

ammonia <.25
Nitrare: .5

I think I have the temp under control... now I need to mount fans to make it permanent, but its pretty stable for now. The new sump is in and the upgraded aqua turbo baffles are installed (I'll start the pumps in about an hour and an half) I cant wait to see what happens!!!

thanks for all the advise during this thread!!!

[GaryP]

Good Job! Congrats. I always say that crisis management is what really shows a good aquarist. We all go through it at one time or another. You did what you needed to do and got it under control. Now, just keep a close eye on it to make sure it stays that way. Let us know what we can do to help.

[jaded]

thanks for that!!! I will

[NaCl_H2O]

Congrats, it is nice to see when these threads conclude and things are on the mend.

You just learned more than you learned in the past 6 months! One or two more major screw ups (like the rest of us ;) ) and you will be "Experienced" ;) ;)

[gjuarez]

Gary, your second assumption was correct. Bomber's thoery was to take everything out before it actually becomes a problem. All the flow keeps the detritus in suspension and then it gathers in the flow where there is less flow. The detritus is then siphoned out from the sump.

[GaryP]

Gary, your second assumption was correct. Bomber's thoery was to take everything out before it actually becomes a problem. All the flow keeps the detritus in suspension and then it gathers in the flow where there is less flow. The detritus is then siphoned out from the sump.

That sounds like a pretty high maintenance option. I know I'm doing good to siphon every two weeks. I don't even want to think about doing it every day. The other things is that the sand bed does other things besides denitrification such as breeding places for beneficial critters.

[gjuarez]

Yup, you are right. I am very lazy and honestly I dont know how to maintain a sand bed. I also did not want to deal with sand storms. With just one powerhead, I would have sand all over my corals and that annoyed me. Now that I have close to 2000gph in my 29g tank it would be even worse. It is really not that high maintainence really. I pretty much have the same setup. BTW, did you continue to read the thread? It was pretty cool right? Did you see the carribean corals. They are illegal to own but he got them from doing research on them.