New fish die

[Thunderkat]

I have a 50 gallon aquarium, with a bak pak filter (bio filtration and protein skimmer), with a uv steralizer, external power filter with mechanical and biological filtration (bio wheel), and the lighting system has 4 actinic lights (2 white and 2 blue). I use aragonite sand as the substrate. I also allow the algae to grow on all except the front pane of glass.

I have a large cowry snail (about the size of my fist), a purple basslet, a cleaner wrasse, a yellow tailed damsel, and a molly (that I used to first establish the tank), and a small emerald crab. They have all been living there for a few months now and doing fine.

The problem is any other fish I add now die. I have lost 2 blue hippo tangs (took a few days to die, other than hiding and staying there until they died no symptoms), 4 clow fish (they developed white spots, most were irregular in shape), 1 basslet (just found it dead), a clam, a tube worm, and an emerald crab.

The only thing I can think of is heavy metals in the water (I added the stuff that supposedly nutralizes it) or the people I buy my fish from have a supplier that uses explosives, cyanide, or electricity to catch them. Any other thoughts?

:(

Edit:
I place them in my quarantine tank for 20 minutes floating in the bag, then I slowly over 5 minutes add water from the tank before releasing from bag. If they are symptom free for 3 days I do the same thing to place them in main tank.

Water change I usually just replace for evaporation and once a month a remove 5 gallons and replace with aged salt water (use a reef salt mix that supposedly has the nutrients that coral need even though I don’t have coral). My temperature is 72 degrees and pH is 8.2. My aquarium is in a temperature controlled room (nicest room in the house temperature wise lol). There are no nitrates in there (except when I first set up the tank and added the live rock but the molly did fine during that time). I have no idea what my calcium levels are, I have aragonite sand in there and was told not to worry about calcium since I have no corals. I don’t know the exact specific gravity I am at work and can’t check it right now but last time I checked it the hydrometer said it was in a good range (has a range listed and I keep it in the center of that safe range).

I feed my fish a flake food I got from the pet store that claims it is specially designed for marine fish. I also give my fish live brine shrimp once every 3 days when the quarantine tank is not being used. Right now I have a clown fish in there that has tumors of some sort. I used antifungal and bacterial medication and it didn’t do anything to help it. I feed the clown fish nothing but live brine shrimp right now.

[Polkster13]

Did you acclimate the fish prior to introduction into the tank? If so, what measures did you take? Were these fish put in quarantine prior to putting them into your main tank? When was the last time you did a water change? How much and how often do you do them? What are your water parameters (temperture, salinty, pH, Amonnia, Nitrite, Nitrate, alkalinity, calcium, et cetera)? If you don't have test kits, most LFS will do the tests for you for a nominal charge. How often are you feeding and what are you feeding your fish? Until we have this information, it is very hard to diagnose a system such as yours.

[GaryP]

Diseases such as Ich are fairly common in fish that are being introduced to a new aquarium. The movement from collector to wholesaler, wholesaler to retailer, and retailer to home aquarium all produce a cummulative stress. Ich is usually the result of this stress. Just as you are more likely to get sick when stressed, so do your fish. Hippo tangs are notorius for this. On top of it all you are introducing these new fish into a new environment with new tank mates and perhaps different chemical or physical conditions. I would suggest getting tank raised clowns the next time you try them. They are less likely to be stressed than wild caught ones. As was mentioned before you need to look at your water quality, how you acclimatize your fish, and also how crowded your tank is. Overstocking a tank can produce stress too. Add fish one at a time, not several at one time. Check to make sure your UV bulb is clean. If it has a film over it it is not going to be effective for parasite control. UV units are definitely something you should include in your routine maintenance of your tank. Check the instructions for how to clean them.

[GaryP]

Slow down the time you are adding water from the tank. More like 45-60 minutes. 5 minutes is to fast if the pH and salinity of the water they are in is much different.

Drop a note to CD about the clown. They just went through the same tumors with their clown. I don't recall what its called (brookalosis?) off the top of my head but they will know. I seem to recall they treated it with formalin in a QT tank.

Also, 72 degrees is a little on the cool side. I try to shoot for 78-82 degress. The thermomters you get show a good range that is better for Fresh water fish then salt. That could be part of the stress I mentioned earlier.

Since you are only doing a water change once a month and don't have a huge water treatment system I would suggest increasing the frequency of the water change to every 2 weeks. There are toxic things that build up in your tank that you aren't going to be able to test for with a test kit. Obviously, for a FO tank ammonia is a biggee, but there can be other things present.

[Polkster13]

Also, 72 degrees is on the low side. I would slowly raise the temp up to at least 78 degrees. Your acclimation time is way to fast. You should slow it down to at least an hour. Try dripping water from your tank into the container with the fish (slowly) over an hour at least, then move the fish to the tank. Also, it is not wise to add store water to your tank. It is much better to carefully net the fish and release it into your tank. There is no telling what is in the water from the LFS. You can only control what is in your water. And as Gary said, only add one fish at a time. Also, your damsel fish may be harrassing new comers. They are notorious for this. Did you see the damsel chasing any of the new comers? You can also try intorducing the new fish an hour after the lights go off. This will keep the other inhabitants in sleepy mode and give your new comer a chance to get settled in.

[GaryP]

Good point Polkster. You can turn your lights off and that will reduce the activity of the other fish in your tank. Also turn them off when you are floating them. There's nothing worse than being introduced to a new environment when being blasted with bright lights only a few inches away from the bag you are in.

That's probably not the case in your QT tank. BTW, a QT tank should be run bare bottom and would be a good place to keep your molly so it has some biological activity between new fish. I just keep a caly flower pot in mine so that shy fish have a place to hide. One stage of the Ich life cycle will live in the substrate so its better to go bare bottom and siphon the bottom when you do a water change. Because you are limited to what can go into a QT tank (such as LR and LS) its a good idea to do frequent, large water changes on the QT.

Remember that if you are doing a 10% water change that you are still leaving 90% of the "bad stuff" in the tank. I think that a QT tank should also we ran on the warm side, maybe around 80-84 degrees. Are you running copper or anything else in the QT tank?

[GaryP]

One more suggestion before I tiotally overload you. Make sure your skimmer is tuned and working well. Those smaller HOB skimmers sometimes require a lot of tweaking and should be cleaned at least weekly. Your tank and bioload are just about at the top end of its capacity and you need it to be working as efficiently as possible for that size tank.

How deep is your substrate and how much LR do you have in the tank? The biological activity you get from those will greatly help the waste processing efficiency of your tank.

[GaryP]

Here's a link to some info on what is probably causing the tumors on the clownfish - Brooklynellosis.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/brooklynfaqs.htm

There are a ton of other good links there as well on quaratining, acclimating, and treatment of disease.

[Polkster13]

Gee Gary, It looks like we are on the same wavelength today. I was just about to ask them about the substrate and point out that their tank is about at capacity if not over.

I also would remove the molly, as it will do better in a brackish water environment. I know they are a cheap way to cycle a tank. However, every time you add a fish the bioload goes up and the bacteria that break down ammonia to nitrite and the bacteria that break down nitrite to nitrate have to multiply to catch up with the new levels in the tank. So every time you add a new fish, the tank goes through a mini-cycle until the populations of the bacteria reach sufficient levels to use all of the available nutrients they need to survive. The larger the tank volume and the smaller the fish load, the less impact this will have on the occupants and new arrivals. A smaller tank that is at or close to capacity will only exasperate the situation and cause the new fish to be even more stressed. Stress is what causes fish to get sick and die. Lower the stress level and the survival rate of your fish will increase.

[Reef69]

I would have stopped buying fish after loosing 2.

Focus on getting your water right, PH, Ammonia and such. 3 days on a QT tank isnt long, thats why is quarentine, i would do atleast 2 weeks. Also, there are fish not suitable for new aquariums, hippos are one of them, they are notorious for getting ick easily. Also, you are taking way too many steps in your acclimation..I would just Drip instead of floating, adding water, and so on. Dripping is simple, clean and safe.

[Thunderkat]

My damsel doesn't mess with any fish, for some reason it tends to hide ini the corner with the molly. The basslet pokes at anything that comes near its hiding hole. I have a live rock with a little tunnel it likes to hide in.

The cleaner wrasse cleans the new fish for about an hour when they get there (the new fish don't mind the first few seconds and after they they try to get away). Despite my cleaner wrasses efforts I don't think it is the cause of death.

Do cowreys or any type of algae produce toxins? I have several different varieties, its mostly green looking gel but I have some green hairy algae and some red/maroon algae. The green algae grows until it makes itself come to the surface from oxygen bubbles then I have large mats floating around. Is there too much algae growing (I just let it run free)?

[Polkster13]

Yes. You also have cynobateria in excess (which is causing the air bubbles). That means there is too much nutrients in the tank (either phospate or nitrate). You should definitely start making more frequent partial water changes. This much algae is a sign that things are not well with your tank. You shouldn't have mats of it floating to the surface.

What are you using for your makeup water? RO or tap water?

[Reef69]

WOW..can you post pics?

[Thunderkat]

Thank you for the help. Those seem like good suggestions. I have to look into this drip method but I didn't think my bioload was too high due to no nitrates. I guess I should just be happy with the fish I have now and find somebody willing to adopt a molly.

I will insitute this new water changing policy and take the gravel out of my quaratinie tank.

Thanks for the help for my little clownfish. Kid Nappin' will hopefully survive. (Thats the only fish I have named as this clownfish has loads of personality).

PS- All of you sound very knowledgeable and professional and I am very impressed!

[GaryP]

The stuff that is floating could be dinoflaggelates. They are definitely toxic. They belong to the same class of algae that cause mass fish die offs such as Red Tide and Pfisteria. Its nasty stuff and I have been fighting a small outbreak of it for a while.

The red stuff is cyanobacteria. Its a photosynthetic basteria. All of these are pretty typical of a new tank except for the dinoflaggelates but that probably hitchiked in. All of these problems indicate that you have an excess of nutrients in your tank. In other words you are putting in more stuff than you are taking out, especially phosphate. I would try replacing your carbon cartridges in your bio wheel system with a filter bag with a mixture of carbon and a phosphate remover such as phosguard or the equivalent.

The only effective way I know of to combat dinos is to raise your pH to 8.5-8.6 with a kalkawasser drip. Be sure of what you are doing before starting this. It can be potentially dangerous to your critters. You didn't mention any clean up critters in your tank besides the cowrie. Its a good detritivore and will clean up left over food and fish waste on the sand but can't get into the LR to clean those areas.

A mixture of snails and hermit crabs will help graze the algaes except the dinos. I personally like a mixture of nerite, cerith, and astrea snails and micro blue leg hermits. Your UV unit should be helping with the control of the algaes. Again, I recommend you check the maintenance instructions that came with it.

[Reef69]

A suggestion if I may...

I dont know anybody that has any cleaner wrasses, they simply die out of starvation, i would suggest you research first about any other fish you want to add in the future. There are tons of fish for new tanks, such as damsels, SOME clownfish, gobies and tangs. IMO, cleaner wrasses are fish that should be left alone in the reef, taking them out can cause imbalances since they help other fish live. Good Luck, HTH's

[GaryP]

Unfortunately a lot of LFS when confronted with a beginner customer that is having Ich problems will just tell them they need a cleaner wrasse. I was there once. Every now and then someone will get a cleaner wrasse that will eat frozen food and this continue the myth that they are appropriate for an aquarium. In my experience, unless you have a lot of Tangs, which isn't possible in most tanks, they will not survive for long. That's one reason they are so cheap. There are better alternative for cleaner critters such as cleaner shrimp but because of the cost differential a lot of people will go with the wrasse. Another problem is that cleaner shrimp, like most crustaceans, require a very slow acclimatization and a lot do not survive in a beginners tank for that reason.

[CD]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20755&item=4367159 697&rd=1

First off, I would suggest you get yourself a reliable refractometer with ATC like the one I've listed above for you. Those cheap plastic meters just aren't accurate enough to be safe. As others have stated, your acclimation time for new fish is insufficient. The example refractometer I found for you on eBay is *very* accurate. OK, lets say for example your tank salinity is around 1.024 to 1.025 (a good range to shoot for) and you bring home a fish who's bag water has a salinity of say 1.030 - in this situation, I would recommend at *least* a 3-4 hour drip acclimation time for fish and even more for inverts (personally, I'd go about 6 hours on acclimation time for the fish, but I'm super careful). Once salinity is equalized, you have to re-bag the fish to float in the tank for temp. equalization.

Second, you didn't mention anything about the flow in your tank (powerheads). Good flow and surface agitation of the water is very important...it eliminates dead spots in your tank (which collect detritus, that in turn foul your water quality) and helps your skimmer do it's job. You definitely have too many nutrients in your water which is evident by the algae growth, and GaryP's suggestions on clearing that up is solid advise. If you don't have a master SW test kit, I would highly recommend investing in one...it is *very* important that you do frequent testing on your system in the early stages of cycling a tank, and later for detecting variations before they become a problem. I would suggest you keep a written log (diary) of your water params., dying fish, etc...that way you can note your progress on making your tank a better place for your fishies and inverts to live. Also, if you are using tap water as top off and to mix your saltwater, stop. Best to use RO/DI water! If you can't get an RO/DI unit for your home, many fish stores sell this water for a nominal price.

Personally, I don't think your fish's diet has enough variation in it either. In lieu of brine shrimp, try mysis shrimp...MUCH healthier! (Brine shrimp is basically fish candy and has almost no nutrients) Right now, I feed five or six different types of frozen, mixed with two kinds of flake, pellets, and two drops of Garlic Xtreme in this mixture PLUS live macro and nori for my tangs to graze on. A good, healthy diet helps the fish combat disease when it arises. It's also better to feed smaller amounts, but more frequently (2-3 times a day in lieu of one big feeding).

As the other things like tank temp. and algae blooms have already been covered, I won't rehash any of that...they are all good suggestions. Best thing you can do at this point is read, read, read! A fantastic book to start with is "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Robert Fenner. Read it cover to cover as it is an awesome book! You didn't say what city you live in, but if you are in Austin (or close), I would be happy for you to come over sometime and see our tank set up...that way, we could go over all the problems you are having, and you could have a visual on how to correct those problems. I feel as if this is an emergency situation, as your tank is going through some dire problems right now. You can also bring a container with some of your tank water, and we can test that for you. LMK. We can work on getting your tank water params to a more normal range, then go over what type of clean up crew you will need for the tank size you have, and discuss any questions you can think of. There seem to be just too many issues to discuss in detail here (I'd be typing for days). :P

As far as the Brooklynella, I cured my clown with lowered salinity in the hospital tank to 1.021 and treated with Formalin (as stated on the bottle). Just remember, whenever you lower or raise the salinity, it must be done *slowly*!!

Please feel free to contact me via PM, or come by (PM me for addy and ph. number) so we can discuss the issues you are having. My husband and I would be glad to help! ;)

Wendy

[Polkster13]

Wendy and Chris are great people. If they offer to come over and help, take them up on their offer. You are getting some wonderful advise but it won't do any good unless you take it to heart and act on it. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

[Polkster13]

Joshua,

Actually, he ThunderKat never said they were using "tap water" but was using "aged seawater", whatever that is.

ThunderKat,

If you are in fact using tap water, get an RO/DI unit. I recently switched over and it has made a world of difference to my tank. Lago Vista use to use just chlorine in the tap water and that was fine until they switched to chloramine. Chlorine can be easily removed from the water via agitation. Chloramine cannot be removed at all, only changed to another compound that is not harmful to your fish. However, the converted compounds apparently make great fertilizer for the algae. After a couple of mouths my algae went crazy from the abundance of nutrients in the tank. After switching over to RO/DI water, I can see a marked descrease in algae production but it is taking time to reverse the effects of using tap water.

HTH

[Thunderkat]

Joshua,

Actually, he ThunderKat never said they were using "tap water" but was using "aged seawater", whatever that is.

ThunderKat,

If you are in fact using tap water, get an RO/DI unit. I recently switched over and it has made a world of difference to my tank. Lago Vista use to use just chlorine in the tap water and that was fine until they switched to chloramine. Chlorine can be easily removed from the water via agitation. Chloramine cannot be removed at all, only changed to another compound that is not harmful to your fish. However, the converted compounds apparently make great fertilizer for the algae. After a couple of mouths my algae went crazy from the abundance of nutrients in the tank. After switching over to RO/DI water, I can see a marked descrease in algae production but it is taking time to reverse the effects of using tap water.

HTH

Wow, I never knew about that. Maybe that is why my tank in Hawaii was sucessful and my aquarium here in San Antonio is a death trap to all but my current inhabitants. I live in an apartment so I can't install an RO unit but I can still buy some at the store. I have read all the posts and in the process or have already implemented them.