RO HELP

[fiji2000]

Need help on my RO system.
I purchased a RO system about 6 months ago. This is a name brand company that we are all familiar with, won’t mention their name at this time. Anyway this is a four stage system 60gpd. Not knowing much about RO’s and after having casual conversations I was told that 425 ppm (tap water) in and about 220 ppm out of the RO membrane was OK. Well after reading different post I found out that this was wrong. So emailed the manufacture and after replacing the TDS meter and the membrane, I sent the unit in for their inspection. They returned the unit to me, stating that the DI was exhausted and probably the result of ammonia or some other dissolved gas. Well the unit worked great for 1 week about 425ppm going in and 0 ppm out of the DI. After making about 100 gallons the TDS reading out of the DI are going up again (about 100ppm) and I noticed the DI cartridge is changing color. Any help would be appreciated.
Russell in San Antonio

[GaryP]

The DI cartridge changes color to indicate it is becoming exhausted. The idea is that when its is totally brown it is fully spent.

[fiji2000]

Thanks for the reply Gary. The DI is exhausted after processing 100 gallons of water. Any Ideas?

[GaryP]

It isn't completely exhausted until the entire cartridge changes color.

[fiji2000]

Ok the lower portion is turning orange. But if I remember correctly from the last meeting, the reading after the DI shouldn’t exceed 3ppm.

[Tim Marvin]

Sounds like something is wrong, but does the meter have a decimal point in it? Could it actually be reading 4.25? Also some cartridges don't fit perfect in the cannister and require an O ring. If you don't have the O ring the water gets past the carbon with out going through it completely and will destroy the ro membrane from the ammonia and then exhaust your DI Quick.

[fiji2000]

This is a inline TDS meter and there is no decimal. Tap water in is about 420 ppm. Out of the DI is about 97-100 ppm. Last week it was 0 zero.

[JimD]

Whats the tds measurement after the ro? Your ro membrane may not be fully seated.

[fiji2000]

You know I was thinking about that. I have not checked it this time, but before it was serviced I checked it and it seemed ok. Then they sent me a replacement membrane and it worked for a short time. Does anyone think that its possible that the RO housing would allow the membrane to slip out of place after some usage?

[JimD]

Its not likely, but anythings possible, the pressure may have caused it to lose its seal if it was incorrectly installed from the start. Might be worth checking out. You should feel a definite "click" when its installed correctly.

[OldSalty]

420 ppm! are you on well water? SanAntonio water isnt that high, somewhere around 270 to 290. Thinking that your flow restrictor is miss adjusted or not there at all. this is a VERY important piece of the ro system and without it the system wont function properly. PM me and I'll fill you in on some very inportant secrets about ro systems that most people don't know. Its to lengthly to post here.

[::pete::]

PM me and I'll fill you in on some very inportant secrets about ro systems that most people don't know. Its to lengthly to post here.

Please post so we can all gain from it :D

[Richard]

Since we're not naming names. There is a brand name that I know a number of people have had difficulty getting the RO membrane seated correctly. It's the one commonly sold in LFS's and starts with a K, ends with a T, third letter N and second letter E (but I don't want to mention the name :) ). My unit (AquaFX) has around 550 tds in and 35 tds out of the RO. The DI cartridge lasts me about 5 months. So I think something is definitely wrong.

How many gallons does it put out in an hour. I would think if water was getting around the RO membrane you would be putting out more than the 2.5 gallons(max) per hour that you would get if it was in seated properly.

[OldSalty]

I'm gona write a small article about ro units and share all ive learned. 550 ppm in???. I'll tell ya all a secret now. When you first start up an ro unit the tds will be very hi for about 60 seconds and then settle down to normal. 90 to 95 % My water is 270 ppm, ro knocks it down to 9 ppm. that is if the flow restrictor is adjusted correctly. So it's best to bypass the di cartrige for about a min until it settles down. this is why we are eating up our di so quickly. also you MUST keep the carbon block filters CHANGED. this is probably the most important thing. a TFC membraine CAN NOT handle clorinated water. it will be ruiened very quickly. Myself, I've decided to quit using the DI and use a double carbon. I now feel that DI is not worth the trouble. also if your tds reads more than 1 to 3 ppm the DI is exausted, period. Maby we can have a little class on how to properly set up a ro system so it will last longer. I've paid the price so I did a-lot of research on these

[fiji2000]

Thanks everyone for your reply.
Richard that’s the one.
Yes I live in San Antonio and with several different TDS meters I have 400+ for my tap water. I decided to check the membrane and it looked like it was seated properly. I did remove it and reinstall it. Let the unit run for about a hour and here are my readings. 425 ppm going in and 125 ppm out of the membrane and 67 ppm out of the DI.
Seems to have dropped about 30 ppm out of the DI. I can’t help but think that the membrane isn’t seating properly in the housing. Oh by the way the flow restrictor is the one provided with the kit.

[Richard]

So how many gallons did you get out of it in the hour it was running?

[fiji2000]

No, it's cold water. I didn’t check how may gallons because it dumping into a 35 gallon trash can and also filling a pressure tank for ice and drinking water. I’ll turn off the drinking water and see how many gallons I get in a hour.

[NaCl_H2O]

Are you sure your TDS is reading correctly? Try switching the In/Out sensors - I had one of my sensors on my TDS go wacko :wacko

[fiji2000]

OK, 3.25 gallons in 1 hour.
TDS meter is correct, have already switched them.

[OldSalty]

If your flow restrictor is adjusted correctly you should see around 42 ppm out with a TDS of 425. Still think 425 is to high here in SA unless your on a well. at any rate with readings like yours your wasting your money on DI, They wont last at all. Thats exactly why those of us that used the famous tap water purifier quit cuz 50 to 60 gal was all you could out of it, it's the same as a DI. If you like I can take a look at it and see if we can tune it for you. (FREE)

[OldSalty]

Ok let's see here, 3.25 gal hr = 78 gpd, so if you say it's a 60 gpd then your flow restrictor is definitely not there of is not adjusted correctly. If it's built in to the drain make sure you hooked up the correct drain tube. Had a friend who was having trouble and found he had the lines crossed. If its a seperate valve like mine is I can give you a formula for adjusting the system for optimum preformance. BTW for everyone tha uses RO you can get rid of the stupid drain line that has the restrictor built in to it and replace it with an adjustible valve for better preformance. That goes for any system no matter who makes it.

[NaCl_H2O]

Hey GaryP ... sounds like somebody could do an educational spot for us on RO units :skeezy

[Richard]

550 ppm in???.


I was just guessing a ballpark number since I haven't checked in quite awhile. So I just checked it and the numbers are...
619 in - Bergheim well water. Tastes pretty good though.
14 RO out
8 DI out - dang I just changed that last week. It hasn't changed color at all so I guess now I have to mess with my unit.

[OldSalty]

Richard, think about it, 14 ppm out, thats pretty low, and still 8 after DI. SORRY ,But your DI isnt doing a very good job. Only knocking it down 6ppm. Its almost exausted, dont care if it hasnt changed color of not. and BTW there are some that dont change color.

[Richard]

I don't think it is exhausted. I just replaced it last week and the cartridge looked at little different than the old one. I don't think it is seated fully and most of the water is bypassing the cartridge. I never bothered to check it when I replaced it last week. I'm going to see what kind of rubbers washers I can scrounge up at the store and see if I can get it working.

[fiji2000]

Don’t think that it’s the shut off valve, as I have disconnected the drinking water system in the past. I’ve been messing with this thing for several months now. I guess that I'll email the manufacturer again.
I still think that membrane is not sealing in the housing, although the seals look good and it’s seated. Too much water pressure, blowing by the seal, don’t know. Seems to be a pattern here if you replace the membrane or remove and reinstall it, it gets better for a while.

[fiji2000]

OK
“Starts with a K, ends with a T, third letter N and second letter E (but I don't want to mention the name)”.
Their reply
“This baffles me. The system was functioning perfectly here; except for the DI resin was completely exhausted. I do not think the membrane is at fault since it tested fine in your housing ( I never removed it). The only thing I can think of is there is something in your tap water. Do you have a water report?”

What type of water report do you think they want?

[Richard]

I don't know what a water report would show but I'm no expert. Usually when I'm stumped I say "Hmmm, that's weird ". Maybe I should start asking for a water report. I think it sounds better LOL.

Do that unit have a pressure gauge?

[fiji2000]

Yes, It's about 70 psi.

[Richard]

I wonder if your pressure is too high. With the filmtec membranes I know the daily output and rejection rate is based on 50 psi.

[OldSalty]

Richard, ya got it rite there, TFC menbraines work best at 40 to 60 psi, any higher can damage them in a short time. That could be his problem.

[Tim Marvin]

CHeck out this site.
http://www.appliedmembranes.com/filmmem.htm
Depending on the mebrane you have it should run between 9 lbs and 55 lbs. There should be a pressure restictor in the end of the membrane that keeps it from getting too much pressure.

[Ram_Puppy]

Hey guys, I posted this a while back in another thread, thought I would paste it here for your edification. This is the 2004 SAWS report on our San Antonio Water. (I compared some of the readings to the 2004 report from Austin as well)

Calcium 81 ppm
Chloride 20 ppm
copper .006 ppm
magnesum 23 ppm
Sodium 8 ppm
Sulfate 19 ppm
Total Hardness *as calcium Carbonate 292 ppm as compared to Austin: 96 ppm
Total Alkalinity * as calcium carbonate 264 ppm as compared to Austin: 62 ppmL
Total Dissolved Solids 321 ppm as compared to Austin: 162 ppm


I would like to point out that my TDS doesn't have a decimal that lights up, It just has a larger space between numbers where one would go, not sure if this is designed in or I just got a broken one, (not that it matters, I can read it just fine.) Anyhow, when I first measured my Tap water it was in the 500 mark for TDS, it was incredibly hard. and I did let the water run for a while before checking it. I think hard water, for me at least, comes in heavy waves or perhaps it depends on what level the water is at in the aquifer at a given time or something, not sure...

Oh, all the numbers above are averages.

[fiji2000]

I told them that the pressure was slightly over 70 psi, and they didn’t say anything. In fact they sent me the results from their testing and they tested the membrane at 76 psi. I’ll let ya know what kind of water testing they want.

[Richard]

Did they give you the water in tds and the ro out tds from their tests?

[fiji2000]

Yes they did.
"Tap water: PSI-75, TDS-121ppm, Temp 57'F RO water: 57.44 gpd, TDS-4ppm"
This is for the membrane only. They had sent me a membrane a replacement in the past, these are the results from the original.

[Ed]

Myself, I've decided to quit using the DI and use a double carbon. I now feel that DI is not worth the trouble.


I'm with ya on this one. My RO spits out 15 TDS and I swear up and down I'm getting better water withOUT the DI.

Interesting.

So.... let me see if I understand how your stages are set up. Sediment, 1st carbon, 2nd carbon and then the RO membrane?

-Ed

[fiji2000]

Check out their reply.
“I have seen a lot of water reports from Texas and most of them have very hard water. Hard water will damage a membrane quickly. Do you have a water softener? Also, do they use chloramines for disinfection?”

[fiji2000]

OK everyone,
Here is an update.
If yall recall I have had nothing but problems with my RO system since I purchased it. After the manufacture serviced it worked great for about a week. I felt that the orings in the membrane housing would bypass after some use. Kent sent me a new housing. When I installed the membrane into the new housing, I noticed that the membrane was extremely (did I say EXTREMELY) difficult to install. In fact I almost gave up. I think that they have tightened their clearances, (housing to membrane).
The system has been running for about 2 weeks now and I’m pleased with the results, 400+ppm TDS tap water in, and about 20ppm out of the membrane. The only problem now is that my DI is exhausted, probably a result for the membrane bypassing in the past.
So if anyone out there is experiencing troubles with on of these units, you may want to look at the housing.

Russell

[JimD]

95% rejection rate, not too shabby, once you recharge your DI, you should be at 0 tds.

[BuckeyeHydro]

Some suggestions:
Pull the membrane out again, and inspect the two rubber o-rings at the downstream end of the membrane. Make sure they are in good shape.

Can you give us some detail as to how you are measuring your tds levels? We've had more than one occurrence where tds readngs were being taken in a less than clean container and causing erroneous readings.

You're only getting a 71% rejection rate out of your membrane so that is the place to start looking for the problem. Your membrane is passing "dirty" water to your DI and exhausting it quickly. You DI is now passing water with 67 ppm tds - the resin is exhausted.

When was the last time you replaced your carbon block?