Ca, dKH, PH Balance?

[NaCl_H2O]

Ok water chemistry experts (even if your name isn't GaryP): I am working to balance my suppliments (Kalk, B-Ionic) and have readings which This Article (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm) identifies as a "Zone 4".

Ca is darn near 500ppm, maybe even higher
dKH is 8-9 (2.75 - 3 meq/L)
PH varies from 8.0 - 8.3

Should I be concerned, or just let the Ca drop back on its own to balance. If I should adjust dKH upward, what's the best way to accomplish this? Baking Soda, or just use the #1 part of B-Ionic?

Thanks :-D

[Tim Marvin]

I don't use the B-ionic, but I do dose Kent buffer when I get out of balance like that. 500 is not too high yet for the calcium I would worry however if it rises more. I just picked up a calcium extractor from Minh this weekend, and I'll post a picture later. We have been passing the Gigas extractor back and forth and it has grown to around 10-12 inch now.....Truely an AWESOME looking clam!

[TroyPham]

hey tim.. nice meeting u yesterday.

[Tim Marvin]

It was nice to have met you also. I am planning on some windsurfing trips in the future, so I will take you up on the offer. Looking forward to seeing that tank in person.

[GaryP]

Steve,

Personally I would do a thing. I think you are fine the way you are. A dKH of 8-9 is fine. If you start trying to push it much higher than that with a 500 ppm Ca concentration I think you are just going to make some sand. What is your magnesium level? You might want to cut back on your kalk for a little bit and let the calcium drift down. It shouldn't take long with your system. I imagine you have a pretty high calcium demand in your system.

After your calcium comes down some, then you can try to slowly raise the dKH.

[NaCl_H2O]

If you start trying to push it much higher than that with a 500 ppm Ca concentration I think you are just going to make some sand.

Yea, like I need more sand!!!

Thanks to all, I think I'll give it some time to settle, drop back a little on the Kalk, and try some buffer.

Gary, I'll check the Mag level, but using Oceanic Salt Mix all the Mag tests I have ever done showed ~1500, so I have gotten out of the habit of testing for Mag - but worth a check, thanks!

I would like to get the Ca around 450-475, seems difficult to measure (Salifert kit) when it creeps towards 500+

[GaryP]

Are you still running your reactor AND dripping Kalk?

[Richard]

With a Ca reactor and a kalk reactor, I don't see why you need to dose b-ionic or ANYTHING else for that matter. I think you find your tank will ultimately do much better if you stay away from the calcium chloride. You already have the most balanced way to maintain levels in the Ca reactor and Kalk reactor.

I have my reactor dialed in to keep the dkh at 10. For me this puts my calcium at 420 at this point in time (I'll probably have to start using kalkwaser as things continue to grow). Ca reactors are really for maintaining dkh so don't try to use it to maintain a very high Ca level. For every twenty points increase in Ca you will raise your alk by about 2.8 dkh (1 meq/l).

So I would keep the dkh around 10 and then use the kalk to keep Ca to around 440-450. FWIW these are also the levels the author (Farley) of the link you posted keeps his personal tanks at.

Oh, and I would just stop the Kalk and let the Ca levels come down without adding buffer. I don't know if you've seen a sandbed turn into a slab of concrete but I can tell you it ain't pretty.

[CD]

So shouldn't dripping Kalk raise the Ca levels in a tank? I realize this may be a totally idiotic question, especially to all you guys well versed in the chemical balances of your tanks, but our Ca readings stay around the mid 300s (I'm thinking around 350) in our tank - even though we drip Kalk about 4 nights a week and do weekly water changes of aprox. 13G (in our 75G with 30G sump & 15G fuge).
Chris usually handles the upkeep on the testing and Kalk, but I'm pretty sure he's mystified at this point also. PH readings have been about 8.40 average. Is there something else we should be doing?

Sorry to jump in on NaCI H2O's thread, but I figured this was kind of related?
Thanks ;)

Wendy

[GaryP]

Wendy,

Yes, dripping Kalk should raise your calcium. Your levels sound pretty low. Your pH definitely shows that you are dripping Kalk. I would try verifying your calcium levels with a borrowed kit. I can bring mine this weekend if you like.

We'll talk about it this weekend.

[NaCl_H2O]

Ok, let me try to catch up here ... afternoon was busy at work and I didn't get to MAAST much :roll:

GaryP - Yes, I am still driping Kalk AND using the Ca Reactor, but I have the Ca Reactor dialed back pretty low for now.

Richard - In general I haven't been dosing B-Ionic. Since the Ca reactor was dialed back and Alk was low, I started dosing a small amount (for my system) every other day or so to see if it would help. But I think this mostly has driven my Ca over 500 and had minimal impact on Alk, but PH is maybe a little more stable.

Wendy - The whole PH, Alk, Ca puzzle is still somewhat of a mystery to me too! I need to spend more concentrated time reading and understanding those Chemistry formulas (been a long time since college :confused: ). Maybe GaryP can chime in, but I think Kalk alone is driving up your PH, and probably your Alk too, but you are not geting a balanced addition of Ca. Like I said, it ain't an easy "one formula" solution.

And no problem jumping on my thread - it is all about learning, and every post helps :D

[matt]

Calcium reactors do tend to maintain a high dkh level without a super high calcium level, but there really is NO advantage to having calcium levels above 400-420ppm anyway. Stability and Ca/Alk balance are the important considerations. If you really are running a calcium reactor, and it's adjusted correctly, you should never have a need to dose carbonate in any form. (I can't really speak for your reactor, but Korallin has been around a while, so I assume it works well) I'd just let the Ca drop to a more "normal" range of 400-420 and keep it there. I bet you find your dkh reading levels out and stays stable.

Regarding the use of kalk to raise calcium, the problem is that the use of KW alone will not typically raise calcium in a tank with a high calcium demand. You may have to use calcium chloride on a one time basis to raise it to 400-420, then keep it there with KW. One way you can increase the calcium saturation of your KW is by spiking it with vinegar; up to about 30ml/gallon of KW. (use white vinegar, coral do not have an appreciation of the subleties of good balsamic) This does a couple of things; it inceases the solubility of kalk powder in water, and it lowers the ph of the KW so you can safely dose more. Watch your ph when you start doing this!

[JimD]

matts exactly right, its a common mistake to use kalk to attempt to "raise" your calcium lvels, you have to get the level where you want them, I like the 400-450 range, then use kalk to maintain it. Vinegar is an option and will indeed increase the solulability but will also lower Ph. Use a prduct like Turbo Calcium or simlar to bring the Ca level up and kalk to keep it there...

[captexas]

Alright, while everyone is on the issue, I will ask for input as well. I have one of Matt's calcium reactors on my 75g tank which is heavy SPS and 4 clams. I do not run a PH controller and simply test from time to time and keep an eye to make sure there is a steady drip from the output (valve get's clogged sometimes).

My KH/Alk levels have always seemed to be off. I just tested my tank and my Calcium is at 420ppm, KH at 5.1dKH/Alk at 1.83meq/L, and my PH at 7.7, all using Salifert test kits. I have tried using Kent's Superbuffer, but have not been able to get my KH/Alk to change any. My thought was I am injecting too much CO2 into the reactor so I just lowered it from about 1 bubble per second to 1 bubble every two seconds. Am I correct on this?

[GaryP]

I have tried using Kent's Superbuffer, but have not been able to get my KH/Alk to change any.

How have you added the superbuffer? I don't see how there is anyway that it couldn't have raised your dKH unless it was precipitated.

Admittedly, I don't know a lot about calcium reactors, but I don't see how turning down your CO2 will increase your concentrations. I can see how it would allow your pH to go up. I think if you get your dKH back up that would help your pH alot.

[Richard]

Take a cup of tank water outside and aerate it for 15 -30 minutes and then check the ph. That will tell you if you have a CO2 issue. Although the low alk could be the cause of your low ph as well.

I don't know how you can maintain Ca at 420 and only have 5.1 dkh with a calcium reactor. Are you dosing anything else? Do you see alot of carbonate buildup on your pump, sump, etc.?

[Richard]

EDIT
Oops posted to the wrong thread :oops:

[captexas]

Gary - As far as the Kent Superbuffer, I follow the instructions, mix a teaspoon with freshwater and then poor it into a high flow area in my sump where the return drains into it.

Richard - No, I don't dose anything else currently and I don't notice any carbonate buildup, just the normal salt creep.

[NaCl_H2O]

FYI - Gary, just tested Mg and it is ABOVE 1500 (Salifert kit)! I'm not gonna do anything until my Ca drops to the 450 range and I can approach this a little slower. Patience, Patience, Patience ...

[captexas]

Richard - I just did the test with the aerated cup of tank water. It's hard to tell with the Salifert PH test kit, but it seemed to change a little, moving more to 8 from 7.7

Gary, Steve - I use Oceanic salt as well and my magnesium level is always at 1500 (as high as the Salifert kit will measure).

[NaCl_H2O]

My thought was I am injecting too much CO2 into the reactor so I just lowered it from about 1 bubble per second to 1 bubble every two seconds. Am I correct on this?

Don't know about Matt's Ca Reactor, My Korallyn is set to 10-15 bubbles per minute, but they say their design requires much less CO2? I also added a secondary effluent chamber which seems to have helped elevate my PH.

Is your 7.7 PH "Average" or a high reading at the end of the day?

I think your "low" PH is a possible indication of too much CO2 and/or low Alk

... this is like a cookie recipie that only your Grandma can repeat (cuz she ommitted the 1/2 cup of Rum she sneaks in when nobody is looking).

[captexas]

I ran a test on the effluent from the reactor. The first test showed no results so I did a low resolution test and it showed the KH to be around 31.5 and the Alk at 11.2. From reading an article by Sanjay Joshi, I am to understand that if I leave the effluent flow rate the same (about 1 drop per second) and increase the CO2 rate to the reactor, the alkalinity of the effluent will increase. It just seems to me that I was already putting a lot of CO2 into the reactor (1 bubble per second). He mentions adjusting the effluent flow rate, but doesn't give much info on what affects this has by increasing or decreasing it. I really can't decrease it any slower. Any ideas?

[matt]

Chris, the reactor you have is the very first, and smallest, that I made. It's also down flow; I'm pretty sure you'll get somewhat better performance if you switch the plumbing around to make it up flow. It's not hard to do. Also, I'm not crazy about the little eheim pump; that's why I switched to the pan world pumps later on. So, eventually, you can try those things to get the reactor more efficient.

Some other things might be changing the media; I assume you're using ARM. I really don't know about other brands of media, so if you're using something else, try the ARM. As far as adjusting it, here's what you do. First, make sure the circulation is working well inside the reactor; do this by cleaning the pump, and maybe rinsing out the media to get rid of the mud that accumulates. (ARM tends to tend pretty mushy after a while) If you're feeling adventurous, get a small pan world (160gph pressure rated) and change the pump plumbing around so that the pump output is connected to the fitting nearest the corner of the box, and the input is drawing from the center fitting, which is connected to the PVC pipe running up to the top interior of the reactor. If you don;t want to do that, you can still get it working better I'm sure.

Okay, you've got good media, and the pump is working, so get it going, set the CO2 to about a bubble a second, effluent to a steady drip, maybe a drop or 2 per second, and let it run for a few hours, then check the ph of the effluent. You definitely need a well calibrated hand held probe, and just drip the effluent into a shot glass or something. Shoot for a ph of about 6.6. Once you get that, check the effluent dkh using a salifert kit set on the low resolution; you should get about 25dkh or so. At that point, adjust your tank parameters with calcium chloride and buffer (or any two part system) until it's right where you want it. Check it daily, at the same time every day. If it's dropping, you need to bump up the effluent flow AND the CO2 flow, always keeping the effluent ph around 6.6-6.7. Remember if you increase the effluent flow, you'll also increase the effluent ph, because you're essentially decreasing the contact time that tank water stays in the reactor. There's an inverse relationship between effluent ph and effluent dkh, so bumping up the effluent ph will drop the effluent dkh, and will tend to depress the ph of your tank. It sounds a little counter-intuitive, but it's true. Ideally you want a slower drip of effluent that's VERY high in dkh, 25 or higher. This will not lower your tank ph.

Oh yeah, you can't compare the "bubbles/minute" reading on my reactors with other ones. The bubbles from my bubble counters are very small; 60 bubbles/min is probably about like 10-15 on a typical bubble counter. If you want to really know how much CO2 is going into the reactor, and at the same time get a MUCH better control over CO2 flow, replace the needle valve in your regulator with a dwyer flowmeter; I can't remember the exact model, but I've posted it before. That was the single best thing I ever did for my reactor's performance.

What Richard said about CO2 accumulation in the room is absolutely true; it tends to happen this time of year when our houses are shut. I know of people that have run a line from their skimmer's air input to the outside to get freah air into the tank. If your ph went from 7.7 to 8.0 just by aerating the sample, that's a BIG change and an indication that you have CO2 problems in the area of your tank.

Try that stuff, and send me a message when it's done, if you want, and we'll take it from there.

Matt

[NaCl_H2O]

Does your reactor have a second chamber? One where the water flows through reaction media without a recirculation pump? This allows more of the CO2 to be consumed in the reaction process. I also believe that adding some airation to the sump where it is driping would provide better gas exchange and get more excess CO2 out of the water.

What was the PH of the effluent leaving the reactor?

[matt]

An effluent DKH of 31? That's VERY good; what's the effluent ph. Man, I just wrote that long post and probably there's nothing wrong with your reactor at all......

[matt]

The second chamber bit IMO is somewhat of a gimick; or at least, it's not necessary at all if your reactor is well designed and adjusted correctly. There's no problem dripping very low ph effluent into a sump where there's a lot of turbulence; if the DKH is high enough, the ph will equalize very quickly. This I know from experience and dozens of tests on several reactors that I made. The often made statement of "removing excess CO2" from reactor effluent is rediculous; there's no CO2 in effluent, it's all carbonic acid. The second chamber does tend to raise the effluent ph initally, but trust me on this, if your effluent has a high DKH, a ph of 6.6 or so is no problem, except for very small systems with poor gas exchange.

[NaCl_H2O]

I know of people that have run a line from their skimmer's air input to the outside to get freah air into the tank.

I started doing this over a year ago. We smoke, and have lots of pets (Dogs) in the house. This made a HUGE difference on my 125g when I had it running, so I did the same for my new system.

I strongly suggest this little "feature".

[captexas]

Matt - I can't get a real PH reading with my salifert test kit as it's only like 7.4 to 8.4. I tried and it just came out yellow which is the 7.4. My probe is out on my Pinpoint so that's no help either. I'm just not sure if I should be worried about the low Alk level. All of my livestock seems to be fine, I'm just curious if I need to address the issue or now. I do need to take the reactor apart and clean it out sometime soon, was hoping to wait till I change to the new tank. The ARM media has been reduced by about a 40% since I started using it.

[Richard]

I always kinda rolled my eyes at the CO2 build up in the room thing, until it happened to me last fall. My ph was stuck at 7.8 and of course I thought it was to much CO2 from my reactor. But when I would aerate a cup of water (still in the room though) it would not go up. Finally I opened up some windows and put fans in front of them and my ph went from 7.8 to 8.3 in about 20 minutes. Now I keep a window in the room just barely cracked opened and have not had any problems since.



An effluent DKH of 31? That's VERY good; what's the effluent ph. Man, I just wrote that long post and probably there's nothing wrong with your reactor at all......


Yeah that's what I was thinking because his calcium is just fine. I didn't think it would be possible to keep calcium at 420 with just a calcium reactor and have such a low alk. If someone knows why would be possible let me know. I would recheck it with a different test kit.

[matt]

If you're going to run a calcium reactor, you really need a hand held ph probe, and calibrating fluid. You can find them pretty cheap, I think I paid about $30 for mine. You can probably borrow one if you're feeling, ummm, frugal. If you've never changed the media or cleaned the reactor in the time you've been running it, like way over a year if I remember, you're due. That alone might completely fix your problem. With regards to the ph; I think there's probably nothing wrong with running a low ph (7.7-8.0) It gets a bad wrap because low ph is often associated with other problems, but in and of itself, I doubt if a ph in this range will cause problems.

I wonder if I'll ever have a tank again? You wouldn't believe how much more time I have on my hands without one, and it does tend to make me dive more frequently. Around here guess where they dive... the ohio river! Not me, I plan to have kids some day. :shock:

[captexas]

Josh - cool, I'd like to try it out. I got tired of dealing with my pinpoint monitor as I think the probe needed to be replaced so I haven't messed with it in awhile. I got a new jug of ARM not long ago, guess I have another project to work on besides the new tank this weekend! lol

[NaCl_H2O]

Matt, your post above for effluent PH targets is WAY higher than others I have read, and the instructions that came with my Korallin? My effluent PH is around 6.5 and dKH is ~50.

[CD]

I would try verifying your calcium levels with a borrowed kit


Gary - we have a Salifer test kit for the Ca...purchased within the last month to month and a half (expires in 2009) so it should be accurate. Yes, if we could talk about this some more this weekend, it would be greatly appreciated! :D



The whole PH, Alk, Ca puzzle is still somewhat of a mystery to me too!


LOL - yep, I guess I just need to hit the books. I've been leaving most of the chemical balance issues up to Chris as he seems to enjoy it, but I need to learn more & contribute to that part of the upkeep! I know how to run the tests, but as far as how to correct balances, I haven't a clue. Thank you for not minding my questions on your thread. ;)

matt & JimD - Thank you for that information!!! I didn't know, and that will help a bunch!

Wendy

[Richard]

If you've never changed the media or cleaned the reactor in the time you've been running it, like way over a year if I remember, you're due.


Hmmm?...maybe that's how it is possible to keep calcium at 420 with such a low dkh.

[matt]

Matt, your post above for effluent PH targets is WAY higher than others I have read, and the instructions that came with my Korallin? My effluent PH is around 6.5 and dKH is ~50.

Yep, you're absolutely right. What I meant was 6.6-6.7 NOT 7.6. So sorry... I'll try to edit the post.

[GaryP]

Maybe its time to redo the chemistry talk again. I'd like to add a little bit of chemistry basics this time so its a bit more understandable.

Chris, I don't think a teaspoon is going to do a lot of good. I add about a 1/4 lb. to my tanks weekly (~225 gal. total). I dilute it in the make up water and just flow it in slowly to a high turbulence area of my sump with air tubing.

Another trick I have used is to feed it into the the little aeration port on the nozzle of a maxijet with some air hose tubing. It'll suck the buffer right out of a cup that I use for that purpose.

If you are getting excess CO2 into your tank from the reactor that would deplete your alkalinity. Think battery acid on concrete and you get the idea.
That may be a bit more extreme that is what is happening in your tank but the fact is that the buffer equilibrium is being pushed to bicarb and eventually to CO2, thus the low pH.

H2CO3 <<<<<<< HCO3 <<<<<< CO3
carbonic acid----->bicarbonate----->carbonate

pH falls as you move to the left, and goes up as you move to the right. That's how a buffer works. The hydrogen shifts back and forth between the different carbonate species and as a result its released or absorbed from the water, this effecting pH.

[Richard]

I don't want to beat a dead horse but this stuff is "kind of" interesting to me, so I'll just kick the dead horse a couple of times.



If you are getting excess CO2 into your tank from the reactor that would deplete your alkalinity


I still don't understand how that could happen with a reactor. I can see excess CO2 doing that without a reactor. With a reactor you are continually breaking down a balanced media and releasing calcium, carbonates, mag, etc. in a balanced proportion. So in my experience and from all that I have read, the typical problem with with reactors is HIGH alkalinity but low ph due to excess CO2. I'm no guru so please explain (like I said "kind of" interested in this stuff).
My money is still on bad test kit or somewhat exhausted media.

captexas - if you are going to change your media... I think I'm going try Carib Sea Special Grade Aragamax when I change my media. I read somewhere (RC I think) that it yields less phosphate/silicate than ARM and more Ca, plus it's cheaper per lb. I haven't actually tried it though so who knows.

[captexas]

I think I'm going to clean out the old reactor today and completely change out what media is left in there. If that doesn't change things, I guess I'll have to get someone to come over with different test kits and give it a try.

[matt]

Chris;

I'd give some serious thought to the pan world circulation pump. It's the little one; same one that I used on Gator's kalk reactor. Josh should know the model number. As far as changing the plumbing around, if you can track down Jason at Alamo, he bought my old reactor on which I changed the plumbing exactly the way I suggested you do it. The "up flow" design will help to keep the media from getting compacted, and the fact that the pan world is a pressure rated pump dramatically improves the circulation in the chamber. If you think about it, pushing water through gravel is EXACTLY what pressure pumps do best.

[captexas]

Matt - can you remember which model Dwyer flow meter you used? I looked at their site and they have several of them.

[matt]

Matt, I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding something and wondering if perhaps you can explain it better.

I don't understand the concept of 1) the pressure pump making a difference 2) the up flow making a difference. The way my mind's eye sees it is it shouldn't matter whether you're pushing 200 gph or 120 gph through the chamber, it should dissolve the same amount of media as the pH never changes. Also the up flow, I've never really seen a reactor clog from the media being compacted, and even if it does compact as long as you're getting flow through it does it really matter?. Am I missing something?

Oh, Chris, if you did want to try it I have an Iwaki wmd20rlt if you want to test it out.

Okay, I'll try. To be honest, my opinions are based on: 1)observing the performance of my reactors, and doing some tests on my system, as well as asking people who own my reactors to run the same tests, and 2) intuitive pondering, AKA "educated guessing". I have not done controlled scientific tests with lots of subjects. But I do have some of what they call "anecdotal evidence" which is probably about as much as anybody has for information in the equipment of this hobby. On my reactor, when I switched to upflow, I got higher dkh effluent at a constant output and ph. When I tried a pressure pump, the higher results were more consistant over a semi-long (about a month)period of time, although I didn't really hang on to the pressure pump for my reactor, because it was a bit noisy and since my reactor was so much larger than my system needed, the eheim worked fine.

The reason the pressure pump and upflow work better, I think, is because there's more consistant flow through the media, which results in more consistant exposure of all the media to carbonic acid. This is especially true as media begins to dissolve and gets compacted in a down-flow situation. What happens at that point is that the water starts to channel through paths of least resistence, and consequently areas of the reactor media are not being exposed to circulating water, and thus not contributing to the dissolution of calcium carbonate into calcium and carbonate ions. In effect, you're making your reactor act as if it has less media. The upflow tends to counter the compacting effect by "lifting" the media off the reactor bottom (actually, with a powerful pump and old media, it will really lift an entire blob of media up) while the pressure pump ensures that there's sufficient flow to keep all this going, even as media dissolves, creating sharply more pressure to the pump. (If you don't believe this, try blowing some air or water through gravel, then try the same thing through sand) It's important that the ph is consistant throughout the reactor and that there are no gradients in ph depending on the flow. Now, it's not that you need 300gph rather than 150 gph through a reactor of a given volume, but that you need consistant flow, as the media dissolves. Believe me, I'm sure there are many reactors out there with crappy pumps that are circulating almost NO water through large areas of the reactor. Now, when I switched from the eheim to the little giant pressure pump (I actually never used a pan world on my personal reactor) I noticed a BIG increase in flow within the reactor, even though the pumps are "rated" about the same, maybe the eheim was a little higher flow. You say you've never seen a reactor clog, but I'm not sure you mean by that. You mean you've never seen one stop? Maybe, but I bet if you have a large capacity reactor with a weak little powerhead, let it run for a month, and then were able to test for ph and dkh at several points within the reactor, you'd get really different readings.

Now, Chris's reactor is pretty small; so I think the iwaki would be too much and might cause some clouding of the effluent. If Chris could get a 12" extension or so, basically doubling the capacity of the reactor (not a bad idea for your 240, BTW) then the iwaki 20rlt would be an ideal circulation pump.

Hope that answers your questions. :roll

[matt]

Matt - can you remember which model Dwyer flow meter you used? I looked at their site and they have several of them.

Nope, but I bet if you do a search you'll find an earlier post of mine that has it. Its something like RMA(then some numbers)SS. It's the smallest one; range of 0-50CC/minute on the scale. (I think-man, my memory is really going) There's also an old article that you could find on reefs.org that discusses it. It's about $30-40 if I remember.

[captexas]

Matt - unfortunately the site doesn't keep that long of a history on threads. They are set to be deleted after so much time as gone by. I was mostly concerned on which scale as they have different ones.

[matt]

Try this:
http://www.maast.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1968&high light=dwyer+flowmeter

[captexas]

Wow, thanks Matt. I've done searches before it couldn't get it to go back that far! lol

[NaCl_H2O]

I went back and read this entire thread again, thanks to all - lots of good tidbits throughout, I may adjust a few things ...

[MikeyBoy]

Anybody else want to order one of these?
I am about to order a Calcium reactor and would like to have one of these on it.
PM me if interested.

[eddie]

I just started up a tank a few months ago and this past weekend I decided to test the water for Ca and KH. My Ca is 450-500 and my KH is 2.5 meq/L. (using Salifert tests) I don't have any fish in the tank but have some mushroom and frogspawn that came with the LR(i think). It does have a DSB. From the article it appears I should add some baking soda? Oh, my ph is 8.2. Everything else(nitrates,ammonia,nitrites) is looking good and within parameters. Just wanted to get some opinions before I start adding stuff to the tank.

[GaryP]

Eddie,

You are confusing your terms a little. dKH and meq are two different scales for measuring carbonate alkalinity. At 2.5 (dKH=7) you are on the bottom side of the range you need to be at. Adding baking soda will raise your alkalinity, but it can also lower your pH. The buffers you get at the LFS are a mixture of baking and washing soda. You have to have at least two components for a buffer. Buffering is a pH issue, alkalinity is a measurement of the carbonate content of the water.

If you are interested in a DIY buffer please read the thread on supplements that we have going or PM me.

http://maast.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=9793

[eddie]

GaryP, sorry about that. My KH is aroung 7 and Alk is 2.5. :( I have been reading all the threads about 6:1 ratio of baking soda to baked baking soda and it appears this should help raise my KH. I read in several places of what an ideal KH should be and they tend to differ. Any suggestions? I know there is other factors to consider PH, Ca but ideally what should the KH level be?

[GaryP]

Since you aren't doing any SPS your alkalinity is really OK where its at. I wouldn't mess with it to much. If you were doing SPS corals I would say to slowly increase it to a dKH of about 10. Your mushrooms don't really need it and one frogspawn isn't going to use much.

[NaCl_H2O]

Eddie, dKH = 8 is fine, some push it towards 10-12. There is a fairly wide range of "Acceptable" levels. Gary's advice is good to use a buffer - adding just Baking Soda alone can be VERY dangerous, esp. if you are not experienced in the dramatic effect an overdose can cause.

If you choose to add a buffer, do so slowly and test per the instructions. In reality, given the low bio-load you have, regular water changes of 15-20% every two weeks may be all you need to maintain acceptable levels.

[eddie]

thanks, I doing atleast 20% water changes every week to 2 weeks.. my thinking might be wrong but I would just like to get into a higher KH parameter while there are no fish and sps and get it maintained at that higher lever for a while.. thanks for the info everyone.

[matt]

If your ph is 8.2 in the morning, you can safely add some baking soda; it won't drop your ph that dramatically. You don't say how big your tank is, but try adding maybe a teaspoon or so dissolved in R.O. water for every 50 gallons of tank volume; you can do that each day until your dkh gets up into the 9-10 range, then let it go for a while and see what happens.