"Two Little Fishies" PhosBan reactor?

[cvonseggern]

I gotta do something about my phosphates...hair algae and cyano continue to grow throughout the 100g despite having nitrates under control. I'm strongly considering getting the "Two Little Fishies" PhosBan reactor. Does anyone have experience with this? Or does anyone want to suggest an alternative?

Thanks,

Chris

[alton]

Several Months ago I had a problem with Phosphates and I tried everything to lower them. Hair algae was everywhere. Gary P. gave me a few Pom Pom Xenia and they multiplied. I no longer have a problem with phosphates or hair algae. I know some people look at xenia as a weed but in my soft coral tank it was a god send.

[GaryP]

Chris,

Check with Pete. He's the only one I know that is currently running a phosphate reactor. I assume you are referring to a fluidized bed reactor. I'm running Phosguard, mixed with activated carbon in a pump driven filter. I change this out weekly.

Gary

[Ram_Puppy]

I am running a Phosban reactor, and while my phosphates levels were always undetectable, I have not seen any new hair or bubble algae growth since I installed it. Now, what is allready there isn't going away very fast on it's own, but my electric oranges and my purple tang are picking at it, and I expect it will all be gone soon. I think the phosban reactor rocks.

Another interesting thing you might try, and this is way way way more radical and I would suggest REALLY thinking about it and studying it before going this route (also getting other people opinions here as well, cause I am not so sure how sound this is), anyhow... run on sentence, I am to tired to correct it. :)

Search Reef Central for "Cooking Rocks" no ovens involved. From what I understand, you take a portion of your live rock out of your tank and put it in brand new salt water, let it sit for a week, and you, I think, are supposed to shake the rock in the water quite a bit, to clean detrious out and get water moving through it. You repeat this process, moving out of the old water and into brand new water several times.

The principle, as I understand it, is that you are forcing the bacteria in the rock to use up any nitrates and other goodies that are saturated within the rock itself, essentially 'recharging' the live rock. Apparently several people who have been unable to defeat hair algae have had success with this, whether it is because of what they described and I related above or not, I don't know, it could easily be reduced light or something else... but you eventually work your way through all the rock in your tank until it's all cooked and replaced.

I would definately try a phosban reactor first, and be sure you read the instructions, let the first few gallons through it go into sink or other water disposal system, and only run enough current to cause a slight rolling on the top of the media, it is NOT a fluidized bed, phosban rolling around in a reactor like sand in a FB filter will soon become Phos-Sand and infiltrate your tank.

Good luck.

Oh, and you might want to try some of the carbon they are selling up at CB pets right now, it seems to be really good.

[GaryP]

Steve,

The phosban reactor is called a fluidized reactor in engineering terminology. I was involved in a team that established one at a chemical plant to reduce phosphate emission in our waste water. I think the term comes from the way the particles act as a fluid, the "rolling" that you noted. Since its heavier than water it stays at the bottom.

I just picked up a bag of the triple carbon that you mentioned at CB Pets. Its a blend of three types of carbon (lignite, palm, and hard wood I think.) I'm looking forward to trying it out. I had been looking for some HC carbon because of an article I read that showed it performed better than several other carbons. I don't know of anyone that carries it locally though and it doesn't seem easy to find online either. I wasn't convined that the experimental technique they used was entirely representative but I was willing to give it a try. I have been using the bulk palm wood carbon from Fintique.

Richard and Mark are running some experiments using the triple carbon as a substrate in their personal tank's refugiums. They will be doing this at the store as well as part of the overhaul they are currently doing to the marine section. I have asked them to capture the data they get and present it at a meeting. Richard claims he only cleans the glass in his tank monthly or so. That tells me that it is working very effectively as a phosphate scrubber. I am considering doing this when I overhaul my fuge as well. I think it is working by pulling the organic phosphates out of the bulk water long enough to be used by the bacteria using the carbon as a growth media. The carbons ability to capture organic compounds and its huge surface area would make it a very good nutrient media for bacterial growth. Thats just my theory and I don't have any data to support it. Having worked in the field of sessile bacteria ecology in the past, it seems reasonable to me.

Because carbon is basically a huge sponge, it would also have the capacity to support the type of bacteria needed for denitirification. The anoxic conditions that are typically seen in a DSB would be present in the deep pores of the carbon granules. That's really where the organic carbon is captured. The granule acts like a filter, except the filtration is both physical and chamical. Organic compounds are chemically bound to the carbon with loose bonds called "Van der Waal forces."

It seems like everyone is asking what happens when the carbon is spent? The answer is that it probably never is in this type of system. The bacteria are using the organics as food, so that it is self replenishing. I have read some articles that suggest never totally replacing carbon. The theory is that part of its action is the bacterial action I was just discussing. The new carbon is seeded by the old carbon, sorta like adding a cup of sand to a new DSB. The article I read only recommended changing 25% of the carbon in a filter weekly.

I know I got off topic here, but I thought it was related.

Gary

[GaryP]

boy, do I know how to kill a thread or what?

Gary

[Jenn]

Its the coffee again Gary. :-D

[GaryP]

Yea, there's nothing like getting tanked up on caffeine and beating a topic to death. That's what I get for drinking Larry's coffee.

You know I'm on something when I start using terms like van der Waal forces. I could hear the head scatching all the way over here. Like "what the heck is he talking about now?" That what you get when you spend 2 days in an activated carbon seminar.

Gary

[::pete::]

That what you get when you spend 2 days in an activated carbon seminar.

Maybe it wasnt long enough ... :D ;)

[GaryP]

Maybe it wasnt long enough ...

If you'd like me spend a few more hours writing about van der Waals and hydrogen bonding, I can. I thought it would be a waste of perfectly good bandwidth though.

Gary

Differnt thread ... maybe :D

[NaCl_H2O]

Saturday morning, not enough coffee yet, and I just decided to read this thread :wtf: :zzz: :? :|

[georgeortiz]

Ahhh!! Hair Algae, Hair Algae, Hair Algae
It is a pain. I have been fighting it for a few months successfully. Patience is the number one tool you need. This was suggested a few times throughout my various posts on the topic. GaryP also had a good point in one of my threads. Just because you kit does not detect it does not mean phosphates are to blame. If you have hair algae than phosphates are present. Instead of treating it with phosban and adding another chemical to your setup. Try to find the root cause. I addressed my circulation issues. My water change regiment and I am looking on how I have my fuge setup. So far I am winning the battle and my tank is looking better and better. Remember the phosban is a band-aid for your issue. You need to find out what is creating the excess phosphate in the tank and address that problem. Only then will you be in control of that darn nuisance algae. My two cents on the issue.
Maybe we should start a Hair Algae Support group. :grin:
High Phosphates anonymous.

[NaCl_H2O]

Ahhh!! Hair Algae, Hair Algae, Hair Algae ...
Maybe we should start a Hair Algae Support group. :grin:
High Phosphates anonymous.

LMAO - And the twelve steps ...

1) Admit you have hair algae
2) ...

[cvonseggern]

I have a hard time viewing the phosban as a band-aid solution...addressing the conditions feeding the cyano and algae growth strikes me as getting much closer to the root cause than just killing the cyano with chemicals or scrubbing the hair algae off the rocks. Everything I've read recently indicates that phosphates accumulate over time in a system, as free phosphates in the water column get bound up by the live rock and other things in the tank. Eventually, as I understand it, this is one of the things that is believed to contribute to "old tank syndrome" where an established tank just slides downhill for no discernible reason. IMHO the band-aid would be using ChemiClean or something like that.

This is just one part of a several-pronged attack. I'm also increasing flow, augmenting my depleted cleanup crew, making sure my bulbs are changed, and reducing feeding. I went ahead and ordered the reactor. It's easy enough to remove from the system if I decide I want to discontinue use :)

Chris

[GaryP]

GaryP also had a good point in one of my threads. Just because you kit does not detect it does not mean phosphates are to blame.

I may be misquoted here or maybe its just a typo.

What I said was that just because your test kits shows 0 ppm phosphate, it doesn't mean that you don't have phosphates. Not all phosphates are detected by a test kit. If you are having a hair algae problem, its proof positive that you have a phosphate problem. It won't grow without phosphates. On the other hand, your corals and other do need some phosphate so you don't necessarily want 0 phosphates, not that that is even possible. As long as you are feeding your tank and fish are excreting waste you are going to have phosphates.

Gary

[cvonseggern]

And I remember that you've said as much before about the algae growth indicating phosphates are present. I haven't even got a phosphate kit...I'm just relying on the knowledge that *something* is fueling the algae/cyano growth.

Chris

[georgeortiz]

GaryP,
Sorry I did misquote. I ran through the post w/o proofreading. Yeah hair algae is proof positive of Phosphates with or without test verification.

[GaryP]

IMO a positive phosphate test only indicates a large phosphate problem that should be handled aggressively and a hint that you need to re-evaluate your tank management strategy.

The best test is that green stuff growing on your LR.

Gary

[JimD]

Kalkwasser, the anti-PO4 drug. This has yet to mentioned in this thread, may be worth some research.

[Ram_Puppy]

Gary, understand completely what you are saying, I was just pointing out, I think there is a difference between what we as hobbyists see as a fluidized filter (i.e. fulidized sand filter) and the proper operation of a phosban reactor, if one were to think of running their phosban filter exactly like they ran their fluidized bed a few years ago, it would not be pretty... keeping mental images clear i guess is what i was going for. fluidized bed or fluidized sand filters to me always evoke an image of a sand storm in a tube... phosban reactor is a very calm environment comparitively, there is almost no movement visible.

Jim, I have heard a little about this, Kalk causes Po4 to precipitate out of the water as a non soluble form of phosphate right?

As Chis said, I am of the belief that my live rock may be saturated with PO4, there was a time when my schedule was so whacked out I paid very little attention to my old 30 hex and that is when my problems began.

The newly setup tank has no detectable phosphates in it, of course, that doesn't mean they are not there, but I figure witht he phosban reactor running it helps keep the water cleaner, coupled with aggressive siphoning of the bare bottom tank, I am hoping that for the next few months these rocks will leach their phosphates and I won't have to chuck them when the time comes to set up the new tank... if the few small pieces with no coral on them are still infested when the new tank goes up, they are going to get left on the back porch in full sun for a few weeks. :|