NEED PLUMBING HELP ALSO

[ansonluna]

I am not getting the flow right. First, I am using a trash can for a sump (for now), the external pump (dolphin 3000/maybe too big) sucks the water out of the sump too fast. I have one overflow, a loop on the dolphine, and a pump (gen-x 2400) in the fuge all dumping water into the sump and it is still not enough. The other overflow going into the sump doesn't provide enough water for the gen-x. What the heck can I do to get this running right?

[Ram_Puppy]

If I am understanding you correctly, you have an overpowered return pump, you need to install a ball valve and throttle back your return pump.

[ansonluna]

What are the two, and what is their purpose. I am completely new at this. My knowledge of plumbing was hanging some emperor on the back of the tank. I got a few ideas, jumped into this and have failed. So you will have to forgive my ignorance.

[alexwolf]

i would just get a smaller pump!!! the dolphin is a monster. my pump pushes too much through the overflows. I want to cut back on my flow through the sump and work on flow in tank instead. I get water all over the floor from splash lol

[ansonluna]

I went big on the pump because I am only useing powerheads on the back pushing foward. The tank runs perpendicular with the wall instead of parallel. I though I needed the power for the two outputs I have with Y'd loc-line.

[NaCl_H2O]

Can't tell where/how your overflows are setup? What is that in the second picture coming from a bulkhead towards the top of the tank & conecting to a ball valve and then to a blue flexible tubing?

[ansonluna]

tank is a 125 (6fter). The second pic is the bulkhead, with a turn off valve. There are two. The bulk head is 1in, but instead of sticking pipe into it, I screwed the elbow over the threads.

[ansonluna]

The blue tubing is connected to the bulkheads, which I guess one could call them outputs. The pipe in the back is the return which goes into the hood. I put a quick diconnect incase I need to take the hood off.

[ansonluna]

pic 67 is hood/68 part of the tank against the wall/71 right side view in stand/69 same thing from the left side/70 the other return putting water into 55 gal fuge.

[ansonluna]

Here are picks of the whole thing, so you guys can get oriented.

[Ram_Puppy]

OK, am I understanding this right?

2 Bulkheads, one drains to the glass tank, which is going to be your fuge?, the other drainds to the trash can, which is your temporary sump.

1 power head pushes water from the refugium into the sump, and the dolphin returns to tank?

If I am seeing this correctly you have a serious critical design issue, and that is the pump from the refugium to the sump, if that pump fails, your going to end up pumping water all over your floor.

If I were you, I would buy a piece of glass and turn that glass tank into a combo sump/fuge and eliminate the need for the power head and trash can all together. I can't stress how fragile that setup is right now.

Then, just use PVC to "U" over the side of the sump/refugium to feed the pump. You can put a T on it with a ball valve (what you call a turn off switch, you can see it on the pipe coming from the bulkhead, black handle) so you can open it up and prime the dolphin if need be, but you probably won't need to do that, good safety feature though. (The pump will essentially be siphoning over the side of the tank.) Then, on the return line to the tank, put another ball valve, this you can use to control the flow of the doplhin, throttling it back so it doesn't outpace the flow into the sump. Put a backflow preventer between the ball valve and the tank, and I would spring for a ball valve that has couplings on it, for both the in and out, so you can easily remove the pump if there is a technical issue with it.

From what I can see, you don't have a closed loop on the tank, that is when an external pump draws water out, and pushes it back in without going through a open container like an overflow. If you did have a closed loop, you could eliminate the power heads in the main tank.

hope that helps.

[Richard]

Or just get with Dan here on Maast. He does GREAT acrylic work and can build you a combo sump refugium at a very reasonable price.

Also, from the pics it looks like you do not have an overflow box. Is it just a hole drilled near the top of the tank with the elbow & a ball valve on the drain?

[ansonluna]

Ram - both bulkheads are supposed to drain into the sump/fuge (couldn't get it drilled). I created the trash can in hopes of providing enough water to supply the dolphin. There is a pump pushing water into the trash can (not a powerhead).

Richard - I had Pete put baffles into the 55 for the sump/fuge purpose.


So I could essentially, put a closed loop and draw water out of the sump/fuge with the dolphin? One question though, won't restricting the amount of water the dolphin can suck in cause alot of noise?

[ansonluna]

How about this design. My only concern is how would I control the suction in the sump/fuge?

[Richard]

You can't hook the drain to the intake of the pump.

Also your drains will work better if you replace the elbows with tee's and put a cap on them with a little hole in it. Kinda like you do with a durso.

[Ram_Puppy]

ansoluna, I understand what you are saying, I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. Your pump moving water between your fuge and sump is a weak link in your setup. You should eliminate that as it has serious potential for disaster (read more flooding) do everything in the tank. And yes, your new design look good but you need to remove the drain line from the pump intake and put it in the fuge.

The only way you are going to balance the dolphin's power is to put a ball valve on it and regulate the flow. (that would be the 'to hood' pipe.) And since your going over the side of the tank for the sump, you will need a T with a ball valve on it so you can pour water into the pipe to prime the pump, make sure you close that valve before you turn everything on though. this picture should give you a good idea of what I mean. Both the drain and return pipes go over the side of the trash can, the return pipe (in this application, I think you should use the drain going to the pump from the sump) has a T with a ball valve on it, when the unit was setup, I used that open ball valve to pour water down, once water started coming out the actual return, I closed it, powered it up, and everything worked great.

http://www.maast.org/albums/Ram_Puppy/DSCN0641.sized.jpg


Also, you need to understand the definition of a closed loop, you don't have one, and you can not incorporate one until you get a seperate pump, and plumb the drains and returns into one contiguous line with a pump in the middle, if you add a filter or a sump, refugium, anything other than a wavemaking device like a SCWD or a ocean motions, you have ceased to make it a closed loop. Think of it this way, a closed loop doesnt leak anywhere, a fuge is a leak, a sump is a leak, closed loop goes Tank -> pump -> tank.

hope that helps.

BTW, I think if you really want a closed loop, you should get a smaller pump and use it for a return pump, and slap that dolphin on a closed loop all by it's lonesome.

[ansonluna]

I get it. Thanks I'm gonna draw another plan and get it approved by you guys :D to ensure success. As for Richard's input, can I just put a hole at the top of the elbow? It's not like the water comes gushing out of there.

[ansonluna]

So something like this....this is a very basic pic. But with a little whole on the yellow line at the bulkhead. And antisyphone whole on the green line. Anyother tips before I go drop another chunk of change at the home d-pot.

[ansonluna]

I mean hole. You guys "no" what I "meen". :-D

[NaCl_H2O]

Anson, I'm not trying to pick on you, so please don't take this wrong ... but your plumbing design has some serious problems. I would suggest you take some time to go look at some folks systems in person to see how water flows through the system. What you have drawn/setup is not a typical system setup and I don't think minor changes will fix it. Here are some of my comments.

1) You really need an overflow box in the tank. The bare PVC you have will not provide any surface skimming, and you run the danger of fish being sucked into the pipe.
2) The drains should come through bulkheads lower than you have them now. Or you could go for a Calfo style overflow (Do a search for Calfo) - but this is kind of an "advanced" setup
2) I don't believe the PVC ID you are using for the drains is adequate for the water flow you are pushing into the tank.
3) If you are going to use the Dolphin, you need to drill your 55g and use it as your sump.
4) All drains from the tank should feed to your sump
5) Drains should be at least 1" ID (1.5 is better) with no reduction in ID anywhere
6) You may need to throttle back your Dolphin, or tee off the return with ball valves and route a good part of the Dolphin output back into the sump
7) Use a seperate pump to pump water from the sump into a fuge. The fuge could be a small portion of the 55g, or abnother 20g?
8) if The fuge is seperate, it should be slightly higher than the sump so you can just gravity feed the drain from the fuge back into the sump
9 ) Probably more, but try to digest that first.

Really, try to go around and look at some systems, even LFS systems. I would be glad to show you mine, but it isn't the best simplistic example to start with.

This hobby is all about learning - we all started out asking these questons!!

[NaCl_H2O]

I think he's got the dolphin setup as a closed loop :o

That's not a closed loop, that's a surge/wave maker!

[ansonluna]

Really I appreciate all your input. I don't want another water world in my apartment.
NaCl:
1) the open pvc pipe is just temp. I have screens to put on the end.
2) I don't understand this number (I'll look of the Calfo), how can I make the bulkheads lower or the drains lower? I'm not getting that.
3) I tried to get the 55 drilled, it was a no go. besides, there is no way to provide enough water to the dolphin with my setup, I realize that now. Thats why I was gonna try that closed loop scenario, otherwise the water would flow though the sump/fuge like rageing rapids.
4) I though with the drains I could have one to the sump fuge, and use the other bulkhead to atach to the dolphin and have it suck the water out of the tank from there.
5) the bulkheads are 1 inch, and by screwing ontop of the threading (instead of going inside the bulkhead) I have increased the ID to 1 1/2 inch.
6) tried the loop back to the sump with my original design and didn't work.
7) don't have the room for a fuge.
8)

[ansonluna]

actually don't have room for a seperate fuge and sump. the 55 goes like this:
drain area > baffle > fuge area > baffle > pump area.

[NaCl_H2O]

Really I appreciate all your input. I don't want another water world in my apartment.
NaCl:
1) the open pvc pipe is just temp. I have screens to put on the end.
An overflow box provides surface skimming. The "Gunk" on the water surface is drawn into the overflow box due to the surface tension of the water. With just screens on the pipe this gunk won't get pulled off the top of the water.


2) I don't understand this number (I'll look of the Calfo), how can I make the bulkheads lower or the drains lower? I'm not getting that.
What I meant was cap these bulkheads and drill others lower or in the botom of the tank - that's probably not realistic , right? I'm not sure how to solve this one? You really need Durso standpipes to eliminate the water drain noise. With just straight pipes, even if you add an overflow box in front of them, it will sound like a toilet flushing 24x7. You may be able to do an external durso type standpipe? I attached a really bad drawing! :oops:

3) I tried to get the 55 drilled, it was a no go. besides, there is no way to provide enough water to the dolphin with my setup, I realize that now. Thats why I was gonna try that closed loop scenario, otherwise the water would flow though the sump/fuge like rageing rapids.
Hum, I gotta think if you got two 1" drains working properly they would be enough for the Dolphin, but the flow through the sump would definately be "brisk"! How about you sell the Dolphin on MAAST and get a good submersible pump (Eheim) for your sump return? With your input to the Dolphin over the side, you run the risk of the pump not self priming after a power loss and buyrning out the pump - bummer!


4) I though with the drains I could have one to the sump fuge, and use the other bulkhead to atach to the dolphin and have it suck the water out of the tank from there.
The Dolphin is a HUGE overkill as a closed loop on a 125


5) the bulkheads are 1 inch, and by screwing ontop of the threading (instead of going inside the bulkhead) I have increased the ID to 1 1/2 inch.
Good, I couldn't ell the diameter from the pics. Are the PVC fittings inside the tank (other side of the bulkheads) 1" ID too?


6) tried the loop back to the sump with my original design and didn't work.
You would need two ball valves on either side of the Tee so you could adjust water flow to each.


7) don't have the room for a fuge.
Using a small portion of the 55g will be ok, just use a 1200 Maxijet or similar to pump water from sump to fuge and a **** betwen the fuge & sump so water can flow back to the sump area

[ansonluna]

alot of good tips, thanks :idea: . I have room in the plumbing system in my hood that will allow me to put another set of Y'd off "outputs", making six total. That would totally keep me from having to use powerheads at all. And since it would be a closed loop, I could point the intake down and make sure it is lower than the water level so that if the power went off and came back on there would always be water in the closed loop system....or thats what my little brain in my huge head is thinking. and although the skimming may not be the best, it will have to do. I've seen tanks at the fish stores making it work.

There's no way in :evil: that im tanking the tank down again to drill more holes. and if I went any lower it would cause more water to go into the sump/fuge with a power loss and cause a flood.

The inside of the bulkheads is 3/4 inch.

I'm gonna be a hard head and incorporate everyones recomendations into my new idea and work it and see what happens. All you guys can do is pray for me...and wish me success.

Thanks for the help again. If I don't get this blasted thing to work I'm gonna give up....I need to be concentrating on school. I sat in my class this morning and all I did was think about how I could get this to work. AND IT WAS MY RESEARCH METHODS CLASS...THAT I FAILED LAST SEMESTER!!! I had hoped to have this situated before school started again, but here I am.

[NaCl_H2O]

I need to be concentrating on school.

Cancel all my previous recommendations! Speaking as a father of two college age children - drain the tank and work on the GPA!

The tank is a good Spring break project ;)

[ansonluna]

How do I keep critter or fish from being sucked into the intake...put a sponge on it or something.

[ansonluna]

Ha ha...it was supposted to be a inbetween the semesters project....but nothing ever goes as planned....thats what makes life enjoyable (and causes ulcers, white hair and probably my balding).... :lol2: