yup yup i still need a bunch of help thz...rich hancock

[verynewatthis]

i have just got a 55gal reeftank from a guy i know. i have had fresh water for years, but i know nothing about salt. i moved the tank a few days ago and cleaned it up but now that i can see in the tank i see little worms they are about a inch or so long and have little legs or hairs on the sides of them yuck...and they are red and black...i got a arrow crab yesterday but all he seems to do is eat alge hair. thats cool and all but i want the worms gone, and fast. i dont know what to buy. any help would be great....ps i am new and i dont mine being spoken down to if you can help.ha ha...thanks rich hancock

[::pete::]

If it looks something like this dont worry they are beneficial to take care of detritus.

http://www.gulf-diving.com/pics/David%20Pics/bristle-worm.jpg

[SaltyJim]

Rich,

Sound like they could be bristle worms. Beneficial for the reef (in small sizes) as they are scavengers and detrivores. Without a picture, I am assuming of course. If they are in fact bristle worms, be careful nit to touch them, as they do sting. They should live in the sand bed or live rock, and you will usually see them at night. Try finding a picture of them through goole or reefcentral.

And while your at it, here is some others think about them http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=491547&highlight=bristl e+worm

Obviously, there are mixed opinions about them, but as long as they are small, it should not be too much of a problem.

Good luck and Welcome to MAAST!

[SaltyJim]

dang Pete, you always get the good pics fast. :)

Nice pic too.

[Richard]

They sound like bristlworms to me. The vast majority of worms that show up in reef aquariums are beneficial and desirable. Just take a look at www.ipsf.com and you will see that people are paying a pretty good price to get what you most likely have. Unlike freshwater, with reef aquariums you are trying to simulate a natural ecosystem as much as possible. Worms and other critters are essential to making it all work.

I'm sure others will have much more to say. Post a pic if you can.

[CD]

ps i am new and i dont mine being spoken down to if you can help.ha ha...thanks rich hancock


Rich-
You won't find that happening here. This is the nicest bunch of reefkeepers anyone could ask for!
BTW - Welcome to MAAST!!

Wendy

[GaryP]

This is the nicest bunch of reefkeepers anyone could ask for!

Except for mean old coots like me. :)

Gary

[NaCl_H2O]

Welcome to MAAST, hope you are soon veryhappywithallthis!

Pete, where do you find all those pics!

[::pete::]

Pete, where do you find all those pics!

I run down to my tank and take them ... :-D

[CD]

Except for mean old coots like me.


...sez one of the sweetest guys in the bunch. Pshaw! ;)

Wendy

[scuba_steveo]

Worms are good!

WELCOME TO MAAST!!!

[verynewatthis]

well i looked at the pics of bristle worms and they are not what i have. mine are very small and very thin. i will try and take a pic tonight. at work now so no can do now. i thank everyone who has tried to help. one more question, do bristle worms change shape when full grown...???thz rich hancock

[prof]

Pete found a great picture...

Usually you only see about a quarter of the bristle worm and they look real skinny. They don't change shape as they get older, but they do get bigger. I have one that is almost 2 feet long.

They are great for your sand bed.

[verynewatthis]

even if my worms are good i have to many. right now they are all small. less then a inch. if they all grow long they will fill the tank...yuck...i cant find a pick online of them.....red and black half and half...and my wife dont like them so they have to go....
worms world party 2005....rich hancock

[scuba_steveo]

rich, if you remove them it my be bad. Worms are not only not bad but are also good for your samd. You need then in the samd to keep the sand "alive". Do not start taking them out unless an experienced reefer identifies them as bad worms. I cannot think of any worms except flatworms that I would remove.

[verynewatthis]

i have white tubes on parts of my rock, are they made by the worms i have in the tank.? ???
rich hancock

[brewercm]

Sounds from the description you've give that they are most likely bristle worms. Like all the others said, they are very beneficial to your system staying in good running order. You can remove some but I would really suggest agains removing all, very unlikely that you could remove them all anyways.

Possibly offer them up here on the board to folks who are needing a starter pack for their systems if you decide to remove them.

[NaCl_H2O]

Rich, try to get a picture - everything so far in this post is speculation. If they are really small (.25 - 0.5"), and "Slug" looking, they could be flatworms, which isn't good?

[scuba_steveo]

white tubes are good too

[verynewatthis]

i get off in a few hrs. and ill take some pics . they are very small so i hope yall can see them okay. i am loving this site. everyone is so nice and willing to help. all my coworkers can belive how many people have replied. MAAST.org ROCKS......thz rich hancock

[Polkster13]

Check out this web site:

http://www.reeffreaks.com/hitchhikers101.php

They have pictures of fan worms and bristleworms among many other inhabitants that you will likely see in your tank.

[verynewatthis]

man you rock you found it and it looks just like them, all the others didnt look the same as mine... this is just what i have. rich hancock

[Polkster13]

Glad I could help. If you are in the Austin area and you end up using a trap to collect them, I will take them off of your hands. I have a fuge that I can put them in.

[verynewatthis]

well i live in AZ, but if i could sure give ya some. where do ya get a trap for them from....rich hancock

[CD]

LFSs sell traps...usually about $10. bucks, but would seem to be inefficient as far as volume they are capable of catching. I haven't tried this yet but I'm sure it would work: Put some shrimp or mussel meat in a piece of panty hose & tie it off. Put this in your tank, and the bristles will come. Once they touch the hose material, their bristles get stuck in it, and can be easily removed. ;)

As a side note Rich - I was pretty worried about these things at one time, and have even plucked a few out of our display and put them in our 'fuge. However, I would think unless they get to plague proportions, you don't have much to worry about. I have one monster worm in my display (about 8 inches) that I wouldn't mind getting out of our display at some point, but it hasn't harmed anything so far, and pretty much stays in his hole in the rock.

Wendy

Oh, and remember - don't touch them with your bare hands, and always be really careful when handling live rock :o

[scuba_steveo]

keep all those in your sand. I had to pay www.ipsf.com to get some! unless they get to be like wendy's you can leave it.

[Moonrs]

Another additional possibility is spaghetti worms; Verynewatthis described white tubes here and there on the rocks, along with the bristle worms. Here is a link that describes what they're like along with a not very good picture. http://www.susanscott.net/OceanWatch1998/jan19-98.html Either way, the presence of worms in your tank is usually considered a "good thing", because it indicates that the environment is relatively healthy in your tank. I've got both types of worms in my tank; they don't harm anything and actually help clean up detritus in the tank. Welcome to MAAST and the world of Saltwater fishkeeping!

[Ram_Puppy]

rich, a couple important points:

Not all bristleworms look alike, there are hundreds if not thousands of different species most you get in the reef trade are good detrivours (eat excess food and waste) there are very few that are nasty, such as the fire worms (which are rare) and other goodies like dream weavers and so on (also rare) which will munch on coral and other inverts, but again, I stress, rare, and you can usually, if you actually see it (most are nocturnal) you will be able to see those predatory jaws and observe behavior, and know.

If you really want to cut back on the number of worms, cut back on your feeding. If you have plauge numbers of bristlewomrs, then something is fueling those numbers. Simply cut back on your feeding and as the nutrient supply dwindles, so will the number of worms. However, don't bother trying to remove them completely, not only can you NOT do this (litterally you will never get them all) like everyone has said, they are highly beneficial to your tank. the population will shrink and grow according to your husbandry practices.

The white tubes are forming from a different kind of worm, feather dusters. You will see them pop out their heads, which look like a flower, and they will filter feed and actually help clean your water. Another beneficial organism.

Please keep this in mind Richard, is it practically a reefkeepers mantra:

Nothing good happens fast in a reef tank. Patience is beyond a virtue, good things take time, and sometimes, lots and lots of it.

Can you tell us a little bit more about your experience? have you read any books? there are some excellent reads out there that will give you incredibly good info.

The Concientious Marine Aquarist - by Bob Fenner
Reef Invertibrates - By Anthony Calfo and Bob Fenner
The Natural Reef Aquarium - by John Tullock

those are a few nice ones.

[verynewatthis]

Not all bristleworms look alike, there are hundreds if not thousands of different species

the one in the pic above is the one i have...and plenty of them...but i got a arrow crab so he can eat what he wants...as far as cutting back on the feeding i can cuz i dont feed the tank...it is just live rock and one 20 inch wide bubble coral 2 crabs hermit and 2 snails...1 arrow crab and 2 little Florida Condi Anemone. i have had the tank 4 days now...but it has been up and running for 10 years....got it for 100 bucks...the guy was livin in a mobile home and it was sinking his floor...i will put some pics up soon.

new question

i am wanting a tang cuz i have a lot of algae. and they eat it right...i am at saltwaterfish.com and i want to get some stuff...list follows

Turbo/Astrea Snail - Group of 10 9.99 $9.99
Blueleg Hermits - Group of 10 9.99 $9.99
Florida Condi Anemone - (NG) 6.99 $6.99
Mushroom Polyp - Ricordea
but i dont know how big one polyp is for the mushroom Polyp - Ricordea is..anyone know??
and what tang should i get for eating the green mile.......
oh ya and the Mushroom Polyp - Umbrella ....how big is one polyp and how big do they get.....
i will put a pic of each to make it easier for yalll....thz everyone \
rich hancock
[/quote]

[Ram_Puppy]

general consensus here I think, will be that your tank is to small for a tang, they like lots of swimming space. depending on what t ype you get as well, they can be very difficult to acclimate and keep, many types are prone to ich.

I have never seen a Ricordia more than a few inches across, actually, I think the biggest one I have seen may have only been about 2 inches, that doesn't mean they don't get that big, I haven't ever kept them.

There are as you know, many species of mushroom, some get rather large, like the elephant ear, and have been known to consume fish, others stay around an inch or so in diameter.

That you have algae growing in the tank (do you know what kind? hair? cyano?) points to a possible imbalance, I am assuming you used new water when you set up the tank, so we can count this as a large water change. I would perhaps look at making sure your water parameters are stabilized for a week or two before you start adding livestock in terms of coralamorphins (the shrooms and ricordea) and again, probably not a good idea to get a tang. If you have bubble algae, the emeralg crab will munch on it. The Turbos are a good buy as well, I think someone here actually has some from a recent reeftopia order, you may be able to make out better by checking in the group orders section to find out who it is. I would also look into getting some Trochus, they are excellent grazers and stay smaller than turbos (turbos have a reputation for bulldozing your tank) nassarius (I like the super tongans myself) nerite, and cerith are also good additions to your tank. As far as fish goes, A black sail fen blenny would be a size and habbit apropriate fish for a 55 gallon, and will munch on your hair algae. Electric Blue and Electric orange hermits will also eat hair algae, you can get the oranges from Sam next time we make a Zen Reef order. blue legs are nice crabs, I personally prefer dwarf zebras, which you can also get from sam, I have witnessed these eating hair algae as well, though, they don't stay as small as blue legs. a lettuce nudi might be good too (for algae) but you will want to be sure of your water quality before adding them.

Another thought, if you have a sand bed in this tank, and that sandbed might have been disturbed during the move, I would hold off on EVERY purchase for now, and concentrate on water testing, it is highly possible this is why you are seeing so many worms and so on, their home was disturbed and they are looking for new places to hide.

[scuba_steveo]

ep sorry to say but 55 too small for a tang, even a small one

[verynewatthis]

okay the tang is out, right now i guess ill get the crabes and stuff for the algae and keep checking the water...when i moved the tank.. i did stir it up a bunch...i tried to keep all the water i could so it makes sence about the worms. thanks so much for your input ram puppy. My wife and i have talk and we think it is best to keep talking here before we buy fish....they are not cheap and we are new. thank you everyone for all the help...and plz keep it comming ....thz rich hancock

[GaryP]

An algae bloom is normal for a tank that has just been moved. A lot of nutrients that were trapped in the LR and sand were stirred up in the move. These were released into the water and are feeding the bloom. Here are a few suggestions:

1. Do 10% weekly water changes.
2. Crank up your skimmer and make sure its running efficiently.
3. Trying running activated carbon and a phosphate scavenger like PhosGuard to remove as many nutrients as possible.
4. After the tank has settled down, add snails and hermits to browse the algae.
5. Only use RO water for top-off and making up salt water for water changes.
6. Be paitent. If you follow these steps the algae bloom will go away, but don't expect it to happen over night.

Gary

[verynewatthis]

so i should wait on the snails and hermits. the tank has been running for a long time and the person i got it from didnt take care of it...when i first got it you could not even see in the glass....he said he didnt touch it for 2mo. it looked like a algae tank not a reef tank...i could not belive the bubble coral was alive,and looked great. it is huge...the tank was the guys wifes and he didnt know what to do with it so he didnt touch it at all..it 55gal with water fall on the left and hole drilled at the bottom of the water fall to go to the sump lookes like a 20gal and it got a huge skimmer in it and a bunch of live rock. and got it all for 100 bucks with stand and uv lights...when i moved it i kepted all the water and moved it in coolers to keep the temp as close as i could...set up and cleaning took about 4hrs..and then i put all the water back in and the next morning did a 20% water change. and put in a new filter cuz of the stir up....lets run for one day and tested the water...tests good. and the bubble coral is opening up big every day now, it almost touches the front and back glass now when fully open,,,how do ya crank up a skimmer...mine is just pluged in to a powerstrip and has one air line wide open to it......and "phosguard" what is that...im verynewatthis...thankz rich hancock

[Ram_Puppy]

COuple more points, first though, want to second Garys idea of getting phosguard in your tank, a Phosguard reactor is one of the cheapest, and BEST investments you can make in your tank IMHO. Everything GaryP said is dead on, patience and water changes will work wonders. That being said, once the algae is grown, with few exceptions does it dissapear on it's own, you have two options for removing it, your muscle, or that of a cleanup crew.

I may have missed it, not sure where your located, but if your in SA, I would head out to CB Pets or Fin Addict and purchase some crabs, I know CB Pets usually has dwarf zebras, and I swear I think those little crabs are one of the best kept secrets in reefkeeping right now, a crab is a crab, but this one is IMHO superior to red, blue, and scarlet leg hermits. Also grab some snails to round out your detrivore/algae cleanup crew. I don't know where to reccomend to go in Austin, I guess Aquatek, or Austin Aquariums.

Avoiding the purchase of fish, or other invertebrates that are more delicate (like starfish, corals, and anemones) right now is a very responsible decision and you and your wife are to be commended on it.

Is there any open space in your sump? you may want to consider turning part of it into a refugium, this is where you cultivate a desireable species of macro alage like chaematophor or gracillarius, give it strong but cheap lighting, and it outcompetes the algae in your tank, starving it for nutrients. But, lets handle things one step at a time. Continue with your water changes and get the algae under control, and you guys will be having fun in no time.

Remember, research before you buy.

[verynewatthis]

my last post was not all right....my test kit test ph amo nitrites and nitrates. and thats it...ph was good no amo and out of the outer two one was 0 and the outher was3 or 5 cant rember what one it was...do i need a better test kit ...if so what kind. and where to get it...i think online...but where...i live in AZ thz rich hancock

[scuba_steveo]

Rich,
I am very glad to see you ask questions. So many people do not ask questions when getting into this hobby and the lack of knowledge can really kill a reef. Gary and Ram are very smart reefers and both are right on. My advice to you is simple, listen. And it looks like you are. I know many people do not ask questions in the beginning because they are embarrassed, but don’t be. There was a time when I did not know what phosguard was.

As far as test kits. I like salifert. The most common place to buy dry goods online is either www.premiumaquatics.com or www.marinedepot.com but I have always bought my test kits from a guy off ebay for super cheap.

You can use a phosguard reactor like ram said or you can just get some phoseguard and put it in a filter sock.

A UV sterilizer is a great addition but with one problem. A UV sterilizer can hide some problems in the tank and let it go unnoticed. I am not saying you need to remove it. I am just saying you need to be aware that sometimes your UV sterilizer can make everything look good when it is not.

A refugium is the best addition to a reef tank in my opinion. Look into it. You can set one up in your sump or get on that hangs on the back of your tank. You can also set up another aquarium to use as a refugium and plump it into your system.

As far as inverts, look at www.reeftopia.com . This is where most of us here order our snails and crabs. I am not trying to knock saltwaterfish but just look at reeftopia.

Once again, WELCOME TO MAAST and have fun!

[verynewatthis]

okay ill get the phosguard today...from my lfs ...i just put it in a sock and place it where ???in my sump? uv sterilezer i think i have one dont know thu i have a white tube that my return water runs in and out the outer side and the tub plugs in to the power strip. ill take a pic when i get home from work..in about 2 1/2 hrs...i get off at 1200 everyday....thz
rich hancock

[Polkster13]

Rich,

It sounds like the white tube you have is a UV sterilezer. The bulb is inside the unit. Do NOT ever look directly at a UV bulb as it will cause permanent damage to your eyes. That is why it is in that protective case.

Yes you can put the phosgaurd in your sump, but using one of your wife's knee-hi stockings instead of a sock. The Phosgaurd will help soak up excess phosphate in your tank which is currently acting like a fertilizer for your algae. It will need to be replaced (or recharged) on a regular basis.

[GaryP]

Put the phosguard where it will get good flow, like near the line coming into your sump from the main tank. You can mix some activated carbon with the phosguard and that should help out. The fact that your bubble coral is going well is a very good sign. You might want to get some krill or silversides and feed it once or twice a week. They are very durable corals.

The other downside to a UV unit is that it kills a lot of the beneficial plankton that corals feed on. Sort of like throwing the baby out with the bath water IMO. I would save it for when you have an Ich outbreak after you get fish . That would be a good time to use it.

Remember that your test kits only show a small portion of the chemical makeup of your water. Some of the "bad stuff" can't be tested for on a hobbyist level unless you just happen to own an analytical chemistry lab. Even then it can be a little iffy. I would strongly suggest that you get a calcium and alkalinity test kit. Do some reading on calcium and alkalinity management in a reef tank. There are some great articles on Wetwebmedia.com. Randy Holmes Farley is a great author on aquarium water chemistry.

By cranking up the skimmer I meant to open up the air valve if it has one. Since it looks like the tank was short on maintenance you might want to take the skimmer apart and soak it in some vinegar and then clean it with a tooth brush. The same would apply to your return pump. Cleaning you pump on a regular basis is one way to greatly improve the performance of your skimmer, especially if you are adding calcium and alkalinity supplements. Its the first place to scale up even if you levels are in the correct range. Scaling is greatly increased whereever there is a pressure or temperature change like in a pump.

Welcome to MAAST.

Gary



It sounds like you are doing, or about to do what you need to do. Just keep it up and come ask questions when you are not sure.

[Ram_Puppy]

Rich, your doin great! Phosguard will owrk fine in a sock, if you can find a place in the sump where there is really good water movement, that will be the spot, phosban works best when water can move freely through the media, so don't pack that stocking tight, make sure none can escape of course, but leave some play in it.

Scuba-Steve's words are kind, we were all newbs once, and we are all still learning, my reef is still young so I am learning about fragging corals really for the first time today. I have the fortunate habbit of absorbing what my wife calls 'worthless information' like a sponge, I started my frist reef tank in January of 04, and look here, in a years time I have someone I respect calling me a good reefer... That made my day! you will get the hang of it, and you are going to absolutely love this hobby...

and like our slang term for ourselves implies 'reefer'.. it's just as addictive as the herbal kind.

[verynewatthis]

okay next question.. the sump has a bunch of shotgun wad plastic in it and not bio balls. do i have to clean them or are they like bio filters that work better if left alone...and dose a refugium do. heck i dont even know how to say it right....good think i typed it lol....oh ya the sump has water just poring in to it..should i put some of that blue padding on top for big stuff???thz
rich hancock

[GaryP]

Rich,

OK, I'll take a stab at this.

1. The plastic wads are poor boy bioballs. I'd leave them alone, they won't hurt anything. They're not as good as bioballs, but like I said they won't hurt anything. Most reefers with mature tanks don't run bioballs but contrary to some misinformation out there they are not detrimental. If you have a bioball system, there should be a chemical tray somewhere where you can put your sock for phosguard/activated carbon.

2. A refugium is a seperate lighted tank similar to the sump you have that allows macro algaes to grow and absorb nutrients from the water. It also acts as a place that other beneficial creatures such as small shrimp can grow without being eaten by fish and other predators. Do a search on the net, there is a lot of good info on how to design and operate a refugium. Some smaller tanks have a combined refugium/sump. There are also some that hang on the back of the tank that work very well.

3. Physical filtration of the water going to the sump would probably be a good idea until you get your hair algae under control If you are going to do it, replace or wash the filter media once a week. It also has the advatage of clearing up the floating particulates in your tank and making it look more attractive. The downside is similar to what I said previously about UV sterilizers. You are removing some beneficial plankton that corals feed on. I do filtration off and on. On the average, I filter every other week. It does help in another way as well. You are harvesting some of the nutrients tied up in solids that are suspended in your water. That's why I said it may be a good idea until you get your algae under control and also why its a good idea to clean the filter once a week. You don't want the organic material in the filter breaking down and releasing nutrients back into the water.

Hope that helps,
Gary

[verynewatthis]

k i got some reading to do now....wow didnt know how big salt could be...the main reason for this post is to say THANK YOU
to EVERYONE all your help is great. and this site is a god sent....thz MAAST.
rich hancock
ps ill post my bubble coral when i get home...yall should like it...i know me and the misses do...

[verynewatthis]

just wanted to post my 100 dallor tank...ya it ugly but it was cheap...and a pic of my bubble coral. one is with the light one but it was to bright. so i did one without so ya can see the size...oh ya and this is what the white tubes on the rock look like...
rich hancock

[GaryP]

Rich,

Bubble Coral are a great beginner coral. Let us know when you are ready to stock some other corals. We should be able to make some other good recommendations based on the capablilities of your system. To bad you are so far away. We routinely trade or sell corals frags to each other at little or no cost.

[/quote]wow didnt know how big salt could be...[quote]

Can you say "tip of the iceberg" boys and girls? We never stop learning. The ones that do, don't stay in the hobby very long. There is a lot more to the care and maintenance of a reef aquarium then just throwing food and water at it. A reef aquarium is a lot more complicated than keep a Betta in a gold fish bowl. You are managing an ecosystem, and the well being of your critters is dependent on how well you manage it. Some of what you will learn is science, some of it is art.

My best suggestion to you is to do a lot of reading. There is a ton of good information out there on the net. We're working on an online library consisting of indexed links to just about any topic you can imagine. Some of it may be over your head. If it is, you know where to go to ask questions and get someone to explain it to you. There are also a lot better books available now than when I got started. There is a saltwater aquariums for dummies book available now. I skimmed through it at Barnes and Noble and I thought it was pretty good for a beginner like yourself. I'm sure you can probably find it on Amazon.com or the Barnes & Noble site.

Its a lot better now then when I first got started. There was no net resources like this. I have learned so much since hooking up with the guys and gals here at MAAST. I'm pretty good at some things, but there are folks that blow me away on some topics. That's what makes a group like this so good. We all share our talents and knowledge. Collectively we are one of the greatest reefers alive.

When you ask a question here, you will get many answers. Remember the answers you get are coming from folks with various degrees of knowledge and experience. What may work for one person, may not work for another. In addition, no two systems are alike. Take a look at the options that you are given and search for the common threads in them. If 5 people tell you to do something, it might not be the best option, but it is the option that has worked best for them and will probably work for you. There is no "right answer" in this hobby, there are just some that are more right than others. :) That's where the art of the hobby comes in. Sometimes you just have to do some experimenting. The key is to minimize the risk so that there is as little downside to the experiment as possible. That's where the advice you get from places like this comes in.

Another piece of advice. Take the advice you get at the fish store (LFS) with a grain of salt until you learn who's advice to trust or not. There is a lot of myths out there that seem to get recycled among fish store employees. The guy you are talking to might not even be into SW. He may be a Cichlid guy and is just repeating the myths that he has heard before. He may even be a reptile guy that is filling in at the fish dept. I'm guessing someone at the fish store suggested the arrow crab. Remember , they are there to sell you something. I have rarely had a LFS employee tell me to "do nothing." I'm not putting these guys down, they are doing the best they can and usually what they are trained to do.

That brings up another good suggestion. Never put anything... animal, plant, or chemical... in your tank without researching it first. IMO, some of the supplements that are sold are not much more than snake oil with a picture of a nice reef on the bottle. We have a member that has access to a lab and has proven that about a few products. They rarely tell you what is in the product except in the most general terms. The same apples to livestock. Some critters have a very low survival rate under the best of circumstances. Some have very specialized diets (ex: mandarins). Some may wipe out certain beneficial critters in your tank. Others may have some very bad habits, such as eating corals. Just because it lives in SW doesn't mean you can keep it in your tank. Don't expect an LFS employee to be an expert on every item that comes through the store. They may handle thousands of products and critters. If nothing else, go over to book shelf and open a fish or coral book and see what it has to say about it. Knowledge is power and the info you get at a LFS may not be the most accurate or complete.

There are some urban legends about LFS selling "nemo" to unsuspecting folks in a goldfish bowl. I'm sure it has happened and that probably represents a worse case scenario but I think you get the idea.

OK, I'll shut up now.
Gary

[Ram_Puppy]

nm, gary beat me to it -bubble coral husbandry-... nuff said.

[GaryP]

The tubes are feather duster worms. It looks like the rocks got turned around when you rebuilt your rockscape. They will commonly live on the backside of the rock. They are a good thing. They are filter feeders and show that the tank is healthy. Does your rock have some dark purple stuff on the other side? If so you might want to turn the rock around so it is getting some light. The purple stuff is coraline algae and is a very good thing.

You can never put a rockscape back together the way it was before, but you want to try as best you can. Whenever you move a tank, some critters, die off. That where some of the excess nutrients you have are coming from. Most recover fairly quickly. While its not as bad as a new tank, there is still some cycling that takes place. I moved my tanks 3 times in 13 months and am very familiar with what you are going through. The good thing is that your tank wasn't heavily stocked and you are not going to deal with as much die off.

Gary

[GaryP]

nm, gary beat me to it -bubble coral husbandry-... nuff said.

I've never had a husband named bubble coral. I had a wife that was a bubble head. Does that count?

BTW, that's an awesome bubble coral. I just got one Sunday for my softie/LPS tank. I had a really large one that was an unfortunate casualty of one of my moves. I bought it as a very small coral with about 3 bubbles. When I lost it, it had about 50 large bubbles. Another thing, they feed at night and can extend very long sweeper tentacle that can sting any other corals around it. Another thing for you to read up on before adding more corals. Some aren't sensitive to the sting, some are. You'll need to know what you can put in with it, and how far away before stocking more corals.

Gary

[Ram_Puppy]

I want to reiterate, the best book I read to start me off was The Concientious Marine Aquarist, Im not knocking Saltwater for Dummies by any means, if Gary says it's good, it's good. Howver, the TCMA is almost the modern bible of reefkeeping (though it could do with a new revision) It not only tells you the hows and whys, but the why nots, and WHY you shouldn't do the whynots, for instance, Most reef keepers want anemones, most anemones will not do well in a reef, mandarins are gorgeous and inexpensive fish, but will slowly starve to death in a small tank with no live rock and lacking a refugium. There was a recen post on reefcentral from a guy who bought a tropical jellyfish, totally unsuitable for reef aquarium (and infact do best in a specially designed tank), why should you not buy that Linkia Starfish, and why isn't that really cool chocolate chip starfish compatible with your reef... Should you buy livestock collected in the phillipines that could have been acquired through a cyanide bombing of the reef? What about quarantine tanks, what are they for? There is so much to learn about salt water, that you can never know it all, and half the time you don't even know the question. If I have even the slightest doubt of my skill in an area, I pop a question up on MAAST. I may feel dumb for doing it, and the answer my buds give may even be the one I expect, but it only takes the right answer I didn't expect ONE TIME to save my reef, and it's worth it. It is to bad you live so far away, so many new people just don't want to listen to good advice and you seem to be hungry for it, wish you were here to join our club formally. oh, and don't let your upcoming micro-education in marine biology scare you off, it is fascinating, fun, and easy to grasp, and it pays off when you see an organism in your tank do something, and you know exactly why they are doing it. very cool stuff.

[GaryP]

OK, book one Dummies...

Book two Conscientious

Of course most of the books I read would put most people to sleep. How about a chapter on the intricacies of strontium and manganese management? I can hear the yawns from here.

Happy now? :)

Gary

[Polkster13]

Also, be aware that those sweeper tenticles can sting you as well; especially on the tender parts on the under side of your forearms. If while cleaning your tank you develop a small rash that has a burning sensation, then you have probably been stung by your bubble (or something else in your tank). Mine has stung me several times in the 8 years that I have had it. It is best to keep as much of yourself out of the tank as possible and be sure to rinse your hands throughly before putting them into the tank, when the need arises, as your hands may introduce something into your tank that could be toxic to the inhabitants.

Also, take notice of Gary's signature. He is spot on his advice. An aquatic magazine has the phrase "The Art and Science of fishkeeping" and this is so true of reef keeping. Gary can probably bore you to tears on the science (namely chemistry - but I for one throughly enjoy his posts) but there is also a lot of art involved as well. There is also a difference in a reef tank just surviving and one that is thriving. When I was breeding Chiclids (many years ago) I use to come into contact with many so called "successful" fish keepers. I would ask them if their fish had ever spawned. They would look at me like I was an alien. Ninety percent had never witnessed their fish spawning (now it could be that they didn't have a viable pair) nor had they seen fish eggs or larvae. If your tank is truely thriving then you cannot keep your fish from spawning (or corals and invertebrates for that matter). That is a sure sign that you are doing it the "right way"; at least for your tank.

Hope this helps. Keep reading. Come to our meetings. Visit other people that have reef tanks and see first hand how they are doing it. Check out Reef Central and the many other great web sites and never stop asking questions.

Happy reefing.

[GaryP]

How come everyone says they like when I go off on a rant, and then they sleep through my talks?

As for me being the education guy, they pinned the title on me when I was asleep during one of Larry's talks. J/K Larry! It certainly wasn't because I came down from a mountain top with the knowledge and wisdom of the ages. Actually, I suggested that we needed an education chairman and I was the only one still standing there after everyone else hid in the bushes. I think I was tying my shoe laces at the time.

Gary

[CD]

How come everyone says they like when I go off on a rant, and then they sleep through my talks?


Heheh...well *I've* never fallen asleep during your talks - whether it be at a meeting OR online. See Gary, that is the difference between a great teacher and a marginal one...the great teacher *makes* it interesting! ;)

Wendy

[GaryP]

Maybe we need to find some great teachers!

Misti, oh Misti! Where are you? She's probably taking a nap.

Gary

[JimD]

ZZZZZzzzzzzzz

[CD]

ZZZZZzzzzzzzz


OH stoppit....heheheh :-D

Gary - you are a wonderful speaker/teacher! I think Jim's just been sniffing the kalk again...heheh...

Wendy

[verynewatthis]

Keep reading. Come to our meetings.

do you all have meetings online? if so when. i dont know much but im willing to learn..
yall are all from auston area....i used to live copperas cove. about 1hrs from there...
anyway if i take a pic of my uv thing can yall tell me where to get a new lite for it...i dont think it turns on..and keep in mine it is very old....like the tank...i dont think they make the skimmer i have anymore. its a VPS-200 HURRICANE i have no idea of the specs...is someone could let me know that would be great.. here is the uv...i put a buck next to it for size
thz...rich hancock

[verynewatthis]

OMG my live rock has stuff coming out of it......WOW....today is the first day i have seen it.....there are little holes. and little white and clear hairs comming out of them.....they are feeling around and going back in....they are about 2 inches long and they come in and out...so i am not just now seeing things....sweet...and the white tubes are now showing red tips of some sort.....very small and not sticking out very far...but stuff is alive everywhere...how cool is that....sorry i just had to tell someone.........
............rich hancock

[NaCl_H2O]

...but stuff is alive everywhere...how cool is that....sorry i just had to tell someone.........
............rich hancock

The addiction has begun ... quickly go hide your checkbook and all credit cards, they aren't safe in your possesion any longer ;)

[GaryP]

The addiction has begun ... quickly go hide your checkbook and all credit cards, they aren't safe in your possesion any longer

Spoken by a man that should know.

Rich, the little hairs are probably spaghetti worms. Another good thing. It sounds like everything is starting to recover from the shock of moving. Just keep doing what you are doing.

Gary

[verynewatthis]

i am so happy....and my wife said your right...about the check and card....well off to stare at my fishless tank again.....im so excited.............
rich hancock

[GaryP]

You may be able to add some fish soon. Just 1-2 in the beginning. Add a few at a time. Keep checking your Amm-nitrate-nitirite levels. When they are all stable you shouldbe able to make a trip to the LFS. In the meantime start doing some research on fish and decide what is going to work well in your tank. With that size tank, you can't really add a whole lot of fish and do corals as well, so choose wisely.

Gary

Gary

[verynewatthis]

i want a fish that will eat the worms...cuz i can find about 5 on each rock...and i think that is a little much...what do ya ll think about the Sixline Wrasse .......not to big...and coral safe.....
rich hancock

[GaryP]

A great fish, I have had one for years. They will also eat a lot of copepods too. In a tank your size they can get most of them. I still have some in my 125 with a sixline and a yellow coris wrasse.

They are very active hunters in the LR.

Gary

[verynewatthis]

I have a super huge problem that has been bugging me all night. I have to get real close to see the things I want to and I find it a problem because my nose keeps fogging up the glass. Is there a spray for that?......ha ha :-D
rich hancock

[GaryP]

Binoculars?

[scuba_steveo]

The addiction has begun ... quickly go hide your checkbook and all credit cards, they aren't safe in your possesion any longer ;)

No, he is safe for now. But Rich, if you ever wake up one day and say, "I want to build a fish room like some of the ones I see online", then you need to check yourself into an institution.

[Polkster13]

I have had 6 line wrasses on and off for over 15 years. They are very colorful and active fish swimming around and through the rock looking for its next meal. However, the last one I had was a holy terror! Anything I put in the tank no matter what the size, this little rascal would run it to death. It became extremely territorial. Just keep that in mind when determining the order of which fish you want to put into the tank. Always put the least aggressive fish in first.

I would highly recommend getting some anthias to start with as these are beautiful fish that stay out in the open all of the time.

[verynewatthis]

woo hoo last night for the first time i saw my arrow crab grab a big worm he was about a inch and a half. and i didnt think he was going to be able to eat it all but he showed me alright...and my wife is now supporting me and getting in to saltwater too. we are now thinking about doing a 125gal tank... cuz we have one with fresh water. and my local friends have been wanting my fish for a long time. plus haveing one salt tank running i think i can get the other up to speed with a little help from the small tank...or is that a bad idea....i can t wait to get home and look at my tank somemore.......
rich hancock....

[Polkster13]

Oh yeah; He's addicted! All of the classic signs: upgraditis, whoppinghitis, impatitis gethomeicus and it appears his strain is contagious as it has not effected his spouse.

[Polkster13]

And to answer your question. Yes you can use some of the material in your current tank to help jump start your new tank (just remember that you still have to be patient - it will be quicker to get it going but it still has to mature which takes months, not days). Of course bigger is always better in so many ways. The more water the better as this will tend to dilute prolbems and give you time to correct. More tank means more space which means more fish, corals and inverts. More tanks means you can keep different things that would not be compatiable in one tank. Don't forget to get a quarantine tank going as well. A 20 long or a 29 gallon tank make wonderful quarnatine tanks. In fact "Doc" user name still has 2 - 20 gallon long tanks for sale.

[verynewatthis]

is a 125 going to be okay for a tang.....my wife wants a nemo tank...and bubble tip for the clowns. and i want rock and coral.....thank god i have a 4 day weekend to get to work on it.....i think i am going to dip in to my hot rod funds to get the crushed coral. its to cold for the dragstrip anyway....and the camaro not going anywhere......
rich hancock

[Polkster13]

A 125 will be big enough for most tangs; however some get quite large so you need to do some homework and try and decide up front what you want the tank to look like and what kinds of creatures you are going to plan on keeping together. Beware of the spontanious buying (especially of something you are unfamiliar with) as this usually leads to untimely deaths of your charges. Yellow tangs would do fine in a tank your size along with many of the different clown fish. In nature clown fish will only host in certain anemones. But in a tank some will try to host in just about anything (colt corals, bubble corals, et cetera). This may not be beneficial to them and could shorten their life spans. It is best to provide the proper anemone with the fish you are wanting to keep. If you will post the type of fish you want, I can provide a list of host anemones that it prefers to host in.

[verynewatthis]

i have one 29 gal with a jebo skimmer and wed my cascade 300 will come in for quarnatine tank....i have not used it yet but i have a co-worker that now wants to get in to salt water and i told him i would give him some water....i ill put 10gal of my water and mix the rest for him and try and give him a head start...he just got a 55 gal yesterday and a stand. but had to order filter and skimmer...it should be fun for up cuz we are both new and have the same size tank.....plus we see eachouter ever day.....
rich hancock

[Polkster13]

Oh no, its spreading. We might need to call the CDC to report this epidemic. Run away; run away; before its too late.

Uh oh! Too late!

[verynewatthis]

i cant help it...i was looking at pics TOTM and he asked what i was doing....the next day he got the tank...
rich hancock

[verynewatthis]

anyone know how hard it is to cut holes in my big tank for sump system,,,i dont want to have j tubes cuz i am allready going to have powerheads in the tank for curent and i want the hardware as out of view as i can get it...thz
rich hancock

[mathias]

if he is looking to do the nemo tank which is clowns and hippo tang or blue tang... yea a 125 is fine... matter of fact im doing the same about to take my 55 and magicly make it a 125...

[scuba_steveo]

i think i am going to dip in to my hot rod funds to get the crushed coral. its to cold for the dragstrip anyway....and the camaro not going anywhere......
rich hancock

Now you are getting out of control

[verynewatthis]

next question..... i need help making a filter system for my 125.......i want a sump system that will do alot of the work.....i want reef...i have skimmer and a 29 gal tank....can we make something with that or is it to small....thz everyone,,,,,,,
rich hancock

[GaryP]

1. Check with a LFS and find out who is dependable for drilling tanks.

2. Also check with them to see who is good at doing acrylic work for the overflow boxes.

3. I wouldn't recommend crushed coral. It takes a very deep layer to get an effective sand bed. My next tank will use the special grade aragonite. It has a particle size of 1-2 mm. If cost is a problem, a lot of people use the sugar fine sand and then a layer of special grade on top of it. Sugar fine has a real problem with blowing around, especially with the strong flow rates you will need in a reef tank.

4. The 29 is fine as a sump if you will have enough clearance room to get in and work in the sump. It depends on the height of your stand. I use a 30 gal. long as a sump. Its low enough that you can get in and work on submersible pumps and your skimmer.

5. If you have enough Live rock, you won't need a wet dry like you have in your 75. Save your money and put it into your skimmer.

Hope that helps,
Gary

[GaryP]

Here's some links on DSB's to get you started.

http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2002/feature.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm
http://www.dtplankton.com/sandbeds.htm
http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm
http://www.cyberreefguru.com/calc/sand_cost.html

[cvonseggern]

Gary, where are you getting the "special grade" sand? I'd like to look into it.

Chris

[NaCl_H2O]

Gary, where are you getting the "special grade" sand? I'd like to look into it.

Chris

Alamo Aquatics had a whole pallet of it several months ago, but I think it was a shipping error. I bought LOTS of it, and I love the larger grain size. Most on-line vendors (Marine Depot, Premium Aquatics) also carry it.

[GaryP]

Felipe had some the other day as well. Imagine 1-2 mm spheres and you have the general idea.

Gary

[NaCl_H2O]

I picked up a bag at Tx Tropical today, they had a few more.

[verynewatthis]

okay my tank is doing okay i think. water test are next to perfect,,,kinda of....anyway i have noticed some brown tint on the rocks and stuff...i have no fish to make poo...and i dont know what is going on....any thoughts..?????
rich hancock

[NaCl_H2O]

Probably Diatoms, very normal in the early stages of tank cycling. It will diminish over time, keep up the water changes & water quality. Hair algae will be next.

[verynewatthis]

i am doing a water change once a week about 15 or 20 %....and i did move the whole tank a little bit ago.... i heard something about die off...dose that make brown stuff....and algae,, man have a bunch already......is there any think i can do to help this problem along.....thz
rich hancock

[NaCl_H2O]

Anytime you move a tank, or make substantial changes, you get die off or simply stuff on the LR exposed to light that wasn't before, and vice versa. The tank needs to re-adjust and there is a level of "cycling" that will occur. The die off, or simply stirring things up releases nutrients into the water which is what the algae is living off of. Patience and water changes, and more patience.

[verynewatthis]

thank you so much...i feel better now...thz...
rich hancock

[NaCl_H2O]

thank you so much...i feel better now...thz...
rich hancock

Forgot about "Helping it along" - if you don't have a decent population of turbo snails and hermit crabs, get some! Not a cure, but they help keep it down a bit and cleanup other nasties in the tank.

[verynewatthis]

i have 1one crab, hermit style. one arrow carb. and 2 big snails,,dont know what kind..and 5 little bitty snails,, dont know what kind...they were cheap at the LFS...............
rich hancock

[NaCl_H2O]

i have 1one crab, hermit style. one arrow carb. and 2 big snails,,dont know what kind..and 5 little bitty snails,, dont know what kind...they were cheap at the LFS...............
rich hancock

Snails are probably various types/sizes of Turbos. Is the hermit a little guy, like maybe a 0.5" shell?

For your tank size, you probably need 12-18 snails and the same qty of hermits, and you could go 2-3 times that many if you wanted. The arrow will help reduce your worm population, but don't put in more than one arrow, they will kill each other.

[verynewatthis]

wow 18 of each...man, my lfs cost 4.99 each. ouch.....well maybe next payday...thz rich hancock

[GaryP]

Rich,

That's rediculous. Check online. We just did a group order and got Astrea snails for .25 each. Your not going to get a price like that in the volume you are looking for. Go to Garf or one of the other sites and look for one of their cleanup or reef janitor packages. I'd also check some of the other local shops and see if they have sort of package deal. You don't have to get the really big snails. I like to get the smaller ones and let them grow. Here are the type of snails I like: Astrea, Turbo, Cerith, and Nerite. The Cerith and Nerite have the advantage of being able to reproduce in your aquarium. The Astreas will as well, but not as well. I've never seen Turbos reproduce in a tank.

Not all of the larva will survive, but the ones that don't will feed corals and other filter feeders in your tank.

Gary

[verynewatthis]

next question yall.....i have two Florida Condi Anemone and i want to feed them some meaty food..can i just buy some little shrimp from the store...do they have to be raw. or can i get the kind you put in salads..should i cut them up about the size of a pea...or smaller....any help would be great ...thz everyone..
rich hancock

[GaryP]

I feed mine frozen krill but have used raw table shrimp in the past. I would get them and freeze a few each in each cube in an ice cube tray. That keeps them from getting freezer burned. After they freeze just pop them out and put the ice cubes in a ziplock. Just thaw out an ice cube when you want to feed your anemones. Silversides will also work.

gary

[verynewatthis]

about whats size????is a pea size okay???
thz....
rich hancock

[GaryP]

Yes, that about perfect.

Gary

[verynewatthis]

Wow i didnt know how cool it would be to feed them...i didnt think that they would move so fast...but they took the food and pulled it in....to neat....now i want more of them...but ill wait tell i know my tank is in good shape...i heard that they will split in to two...anyone know how long they take to do that....and if it depends on food ill feed them a bunch....thz...
rich hancok

[GaryP]

You need to get a cool anemone. Condy's are a little boring as far as color is concerned in my opinion and they can pack a powerful sting. Maybe a rose bubble tip. I'm not sure what you said you had for lights. A Condy isn't photosynthetic, a bubble tip is.

Gary

[CD]

A Condy isn't photosynthetic, a bubble tip is.


Gary - what do you think the minimum lighting requirement for a RBTA would be? The 45G DAS we are working on setting up has 2 24" VHOs, and I'm afraid this won't be enough light.

Wendy

[verynewatthis]

what do ya mean photosynthetic.....as far as lights ....just 4 48inch uv bulbs...i have two anemones and one very big bubble coral.....thz
rich hancock

[verynewatthis]

new question for you guys...i wanted to get a tang, but you all said my tank was to small...55gal..so is there a different fish i can get that well eat all the long big aglae???thz....
rich hancock

[mathias]

55gal is ok for a yellow tang.... I have one if its bad SHhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't tell nobody :)

[verynewatthis]

i have a bunch of live rock in mine...almost half id say...is that still okay...maybe i could get a small one.....
rich hancock

[mathias]

yea I have about 70lbs in my 55gal

[Polkster13]

I hear a foxface will do better at algae control than a Tang. I think I heard that at the last meeting. Yep, that was where I heard that. Came from a very reliable source too.

[verynewatthis]

thanks. ill look in to one....hope they are reef safe....
rich hancock

[CD]

hope they are reef safe....


As long as they are fed well, you should't have problems. Watch out for the spines though...they are venomous!

Wendy

[verynewatthis]

Foxface - Venomous ....yikes....
will they try and sting when your in the tank...i dont know how i feel about that....i kinda want a safe tank...lol....thz
rich hancock

[CD]

Heh...it's not as bad as it sounds. You would just have to be aware where the FF was in your tank when you are sticking your hands in there, and try not to surprise him. I would think it would be much the same as having a lionfish. They aren't going to attack you or anything, but you would just need to be careful.

Wendy

[verynewatthis]

i just wanted to ask everyone if a clown fish will play in a bubble coral...cuz i have no fish and i kinda want one...anyone know if they will play well with eachother....thz......
rich hancock

[Ram_Puppy]

foxfaces can eat your softies if they get it in them to... I would suggest a much more placid member, a black sail fin blenny. Hair algae muncher.

Also, on the snail front, don't forget my favorites! Pacfic Trochus and Super Tongan Nassarius. Love watching those tongans rise out of the sand like trap door spiders on the hunt for grunge to eat.

[cvonseggern]

what do ya mean photosynthetic.....as far as lights ....just 4 48inch uv bulbs...i have two anemones and one very big bubble coral.....thz
rich hancock

Since nobody's answered this yet, I'll take a swing...note the usual disclaimer that I'm a beginner at this too.

Many cnidarians, including most anemones and corals, get at least some of their food from algae that live in their tissues and perform photosynthesis. They need intense lighting (how intense depends on a number of factors, including the critter and the depth of the water) to survive. If both your anemones are condies, they should be OK (are they really nonphotosynthetic? I didn't know that). Other species will need high-end lighting, most often metal halide, to survive. The bubble coral, if I'm correct, will possibly survive for a while under basic tank lighting but will not thrive.

I have always found lighting to be the most intimidating subject in the hobby, as well as the hardest on which to find good info. If you do some searching on the subject you will probably find the info you're after here though...we have some very knowledgeable people. On the high end, Greg Houston of 360Reef was very helpful to me in understanding what my choices were when it came to metal halides.

Do you happen to know if those lights you have are VHO (Very High Output) or PC (Power Compact?) Generally if they're the lights that came with the tank they're just NO (Normal Output) and won't do for photosynthetic inverts. Do you know what the wattage is? More is generally better, obviously, but the type of fluorescent is at least as important.

Chris

[verynewatthis]

i dont know if they are vho or not ....i know they are 40watts and for saltwater...i think they were 15 bucks or so each....2 glow blue and two that are white when on......thz...
rich hancock

[Ram_Puppy]

15 bucks each, at 36" sounds like it could be VHO, there are bulbs from 30 watts to 95 watts in that size range, there are a FEW in that price range for 48" at 40 watts...

If you are looking to upgrade your lighting without substantial cost, I would talk to Greg from 360 reef, and get setup with a T5 retrofit fixture (if you have a canopy) or a T5 Lighting system. that will get you on your way, and as long as your tank is not over 20" deep, is really all you need. Pack as many over your tank as you can.

[verynewatthis]

thz...ill try and get in touch with him....thz again...
rich hancock

[cvonseggern]

Greg's a good guy...he'll hook you up.

[verynewatthis]

i live in AZ..can Greg ship them... i need lights....i only have a 55 gal tank....how much do i need...i have found people that sale and trade frags in tucson...and that is about a hour and a half form me...i am so happy to find people but i dont want to put anything in my tank...tell it is just right...plz what is the fix....i have 4 48inch 40watt bulbs...keep in mind im in the army and on a budget...thz....
rich hancock

[Ram_Puppy]

Rich, first off, thanks for serving our country. :)

The only photosynthetic invertebrate that I think you have mentioned is your bubble coral right? if that is the only demand so far, your looking at moderate lighting, T-5's will foot the bill, I can't tell if your tank is a show tank or not (alters the dimensions of the tank) 48" bulbs will fit over the 55 gallon I have. As far as buying on economy, I can not stress the superiority of T-5's, they are the most efficient flourescent bulb out there, bar none, better than VHO and PC as far as the PAR they put out for watts expended. The bulbs last for 2 years, VHO's last for 6 months to a year, and PC's last around 1 year to a year and a half, so they are the ecenomical choice for replacing bulbs too, they aren't that expensive as far as bulbs go as well.

Now, as far as what you should get, if you decide T-5's are the right way to go, and you are content with not growing SPS and LPS * YOU CAN PROBABLY STILL DO THIS* then I would pack as many T-5 fixtures over that tank as you can. I don't know what Gregs pricing on them is but here is something comparable:

http://www.reefgeek.com/products/categories/lighting/104068.html

keep in mind cost of operation as well, that is a 216 watt fixture, it will cost less than a single 250 watt Metal Halide fixture in operating costs.

It is a sad truth, but this is a very expensive hobby. Your best bet as far as buying ecenomical lighting choices, is probably going to be EBAY, buying used lights is fine, as long as you know how many hours they have on them, it's just like someone driving a car off the lot, let them pay the premium.

If you are technically savvy enough with wiring, you can actually wire up your own lighting kit with supplies from a local lighting company or home depot, cheaper, not as safe or effective, but can sometimes do the job. (I wired my first lighting rig on my own.) I hope that helps.

If you want to keep Giant clams, SPS and LPS in the future, your probably going to want to invest in metal halide at some point, if that is the case, if you see yourself going down that road, I would back off the 4 tube fixture above, and get a 2 tube fixture, leaving room for the halides to come in later. nothing says you have to buy everything all at once, your lighting needs are totally dependent on your stocking requirements, Just take your time and go slow, do lots of research, and enjoy your hobby.

here is a reefcentral thread of a tank lit exclusively on T-5's, and his progression through his lighting scheme, you will note right off he is producing enough light through T-5's to grow SPS and Clams.

enjoy (they are gorgeous photos!)

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=446846&highlight=why+t5

[verynewatthis]

i am so happy i have meet some local reef guys and they are very nice...i went to one of there houses today...and wow...what a tank....he even gave me a few green zoo a few hrs ago...and they are already opening up...how cool is that....i know its not much for all of you. but i take baby steps...im overjoyed over a few zoo's.......
rich hancock

[verynewatthis]

anyone know where i can find a metal stand that willl hold 2 55gal tanks...one on top of the other...thz...
rich hancock

[CD]

anyone know where i can find a metal stand that willl hold 2 55gal tanks...one on top of the other...thz...
rich hancock

Contact falcam7. I think he may have one but don't know if he wants to sell it or not.

Chris

[verynewatthis]

thz...chris....
rich hancock

[Ram_Puppy]

Rich, shipping a stand to you might be cost prohibitive from south texas, not sure, but why not check around your area and if you can't find one, possibly have one welded? make sure it has a poweder coat or a really solid paint job, or you will have a stand made of rust.

[verynewatthis]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
okay first i want to say sorry for not talking in a bit...im in the army and i have been in the field...sorry...got to stay up to speed and all...anyway my question is i want to get some critters to clean my tank up...so far i am looking at saltwaterfish.com but they are all the way in FL and i am in AZ...is that to far away??? is there anywhere closer so i dont worry so much....any help would be great...thz.....
rich hancock

[verynewatthis]

oh ya one more question....i need to learn about overflow boxes...cuz my 125 is not reef ready......how do they work...if my pump is to big will my tank overflow???and if my pump is to small will they loose there siphon???....can anyone help....thz....
rich hancock

[verynewatthis]

wohoo its tax return time....the wife is giving me 1400 bucks for my tank...she is so cool...i want to get lights...i was going to get some VHO and some Metal Halides but i talked to my LFS guy in tucson and he said its to much....he wantes me to get power compacts...two 4X65's ....any thoughts....they are much cheaper...and that is what is on all of his tanks...and he has some nice tanks....his store is big and he sells everything...he thinks the MH are to bright.....all his stuff would hide when he had them on...plus they have to be so high above the water...and he says the PC bulbs last longer.....any thoughts.....thz....
rich hancock

[alexwolf]

Sounds like he is trying to sell you what he has!!! MH is the way to go if you want corals, clams, and things like that., For fish, PC's are fine.

[verynewatthis]

this is where i was looking also... http://www.marineandreef.com/Info/lightingchart.html .. i will be getting a new 75 gal reefready tank...and i dont want to upgrade later...but remeber i have a huge bubble coral...and i have been told by a few people that MH might burn it...it 10 yrs old...i would cry if i lost it.......
rich hancock

[Jenn]

I would do MH, but if you are not going to keep stonies, go with like T5s. If you do decide to do the 4x65w pcs, they will work, but you will probably end up wanting stronger - most do. Also, if you end up doing the pc route, I have had a 12x65w pc system for a while and can tell you that you will want to replace the bulbs about every 9 months. T5's supposedly can go quite a but longer.

[verynewatthis]

ohh wow...i was going to get two of the 4X65w....but only 9mo.....that kinda sucks....the VHO MH kit is 500bucks....ouch...
rich hancock

[Jenn]

Rich, that's just my personal experience, but I know others will agree. I would try and do research on the T5 thing if I was you. I have read that bulbs last up to 2 years, but that seems a little long to me. Still, better than the pc deal.

[verynewatthis]

thz jen ill look in to it today....i have a few hrs of work still so i have plenty of time...i wonder if they make a t-5 / MH kit....???
rich hancock

[alexwolf]

you can make it yourself for much less than the premade ones.

[Jenn]

I don't remember if I saw those or not, but I just ordered 2 MH retros and all the separate components to put together a T5 setup, so that may work for you. This is my first time with a DIY setup and have a feeling its going to be very interesting. Maybe I should grab some extra insurance first! :-D

[alexwolf]

Ah cmon!!! Its easy!!! :)

[CD]

and i have been told by a few people that MH might burn it...it 10 yrs old


Rich- Just remember, when and if you decide to switch to MHs, you will want to do this gradually. We have our pendant on chains, and when we switched, we raised the pendant *much* higher, and then very gradually lowered it an inch at a time. Even though we were really careful, we ended up losing one SPS anyway. Just a thought ;)

Wendy

[Jenn]

Ah cmon!!! Its easy!!!


Great!!! Now I know who to call on if I have probs. Thanks Alex!!!! :-D

[verynewatthis]

oh wow i didnt even know you had to do that with MH....my bubble is about 18 inch across and my wife would kick me in the jimmy if i hurt it....
rich hancock

[verynewatthis]

what do yall think of this??? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=46314&item=4354744 729&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW ...
rich hancock

[CD]

oh wow i didnt even know you had to do that with MH.


Well, you just have to remember how much more intensity you will be shooting into your tank with MHs. I don't remember where your bubble is (as far as height) in your tank, but if it's up higher in your rockscape, you may want to also lower it's placement in the tank until it gets used to the light increase. You can quite literally fry your corals and even the coraline on your rock if you aren't careful. I still move some of my new frags closer to the light in stages - especially when you know you have purchased them from someone that does not have the same light intensity as your MHs will provide.

Wendy

[verynewatthis]

my bubble is about 2 inches from the top when fully open.....but it is just so tall i have the rock it was placed on right on the bottom ,,,this thing is just huge...i need a bigger tank for it....it will touch both front and back of the tank somethtimes.....
rich hancock

[verynewatthis]

okay who do i talk to about becoming a member...i know i am in az but i still want to join,.... i talked to alex wolf about it and he told me how much it costs...and i just need to know who to send the check to ...any help would be great...thz....
rich hancock

[MikeDeL]

Here ya go. http://www.maast.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=8948

[verynewatthis]

new question.... i just ordered a 80 gal reef ready tank...i want MH lights ...the tank will be 4ft by 25inch deep...i have been told 175 and 250...and i know its a matter of what i want to do...i want to be able to do everything....what is the depth for each...any help would be great...thz...
rich hancock

[astrong]

If you "want to do everything," get the 250's.

Check out the new AquaLight DE MH fixture. They have the 250's in the pipeline but right now only the 150's are available. There are many options though. I just like the combo of PC actinic, moonlights and DE for a reasonable price.

[verynewatthis]

anyone?????

[Ram_Puppy]

Rich, I say go with a 250 with T5 backup.

[DeletedAccount]

250 with T5's

[alexwolf]

2 250w DE pendants with T-5's.

[mathias]

I can't seem to find any MH retro kits with t5's or hoods anywhere...

[MikeDeL]

http://www.coralvue.com/t5retro.htm

[Ram_Puppy]

MIke to the rescue with a sponsor link! YAH!

[mathias]

OK MIKE.... 48inch retro guess thats 2MH 250 watt and the t5s how $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[MikeDeL]

OK MIKE.... 48inch retro guess thats 2MH 250 watt and the t5s how $$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Ummmm....How much you got? Talk to Greg 360Reef.

[mathias]

LOL... NOT MUCH.... I WORK AT KB HOME WE ARE POOR....

[MikeDeL]

I know the 36" with a single halide is $285. Dont know how much the 48s are

[alexwolf]

LOL!!!!!!!!! Yeah right, so does Josh, but look, new house, nice new truck, nice 180 reef :)

[alexwolf]

:o i need to go fill out an application

oh wait, then i might have to work

NAH!!!!! :)

[mathias]

Yea I guess I do have a new house, a new car ENVOY XUV and now I cant afford lights :)

[mathias]

well Josh is the computer guy thats big money I just sell houses :)

[verynewatthis]

that link is nice ....but how much is it....????...thz...
rich hancock

[MikeDeL]

Rich, contact Greg. His screen name is 360Reef. PM him, he will help you out.

[verynewatthis]

has anyone used this and if so how well dose it work...i dont want to buy anything with out checking with people that know more then me....thz...rich hancock

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3212&item=43618406 84&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

[verynewatthis]

oh ya new question,,,i am getting some southdown sand in...i have been told it is eazy to jump start. and i have found a few people near me to help me out with some of there good live stuff...my question is do i just dump it in or do i have to wash it with saltwater or soak it???? i have no idea..do i fill the new tank with water first then sand or the outher way...thz....rich hancock

[GaryP]

Its better to wash it and get the dust out of it. It takes a long time to get it to filter or settle out.

The other thing I would recommend you do is get some "special grade" aragonite and put about a 1" layer of it on top of the southdown to keep it from getting blown around by your pumps or stirred up by your critters. Special Grade is usually about 1 mm in size and will stay layered on top of the southdown. Southdown is a sugar fine sized aragonite sand.

[verynewatthis]

okay for some reason i cant find southdown sand in az...not here or tucson or even phx....i know it is playground sand, can i use the play ground sand at home depot??? i am getting so upset...my new tank will be here at the end of the week...have rock,lights,fishs, but no sand.....anyhelp would be great...thz....rich hancock

[verynewatthis]

i dont know what to do for sand...can anyone give me a clue what to get..i like the white southdown but cant find it...is there a different brand that is fine and white...thz...rich hancock

[brewercm]

See if you can find it in a brand called Yardright. I think that is the spelling, that is the new name that Southdown is using. At least I believe that is correct, someone will chime in if I'm wrong.

[MikeDeL]

That is what the are calling it these days Yardright.

[garagebrian]

Just make sure you get the right kind of Yardright sand...there are several different kinds and I almost bought the wrong kind. It needs to be aragonite sand and stay away from Silica based!

B.

[verynewatthis]

okay im setting up the new 80 and everything is doing fine so far..but i want to start dosing. so i went to marine depot and i dont know what to buy...lots of brands and all...any help would be great....thz.. .rich hancock

[Henry]

you can use silica based sand. THere is nothing wrong using it. Its not as white as southdown or pure aragonite, but it will work. The myth that silica based sand will cause a bacteria/algea bloom is not true. Good luck

[verynewatthis]

anyone?

[garagebrian]

okay im setting up the new 80 and everything is doing fine so far..but i want to start dosing. so i went to marine depot and i dont know what to buy...lots of brands and all...any help would be great....thz.. .rich hancock

What are you looking to dose? Personally, I think that you will not need to dose anything until your tank has cycled and become established and you have a moderate to heavy load of corals. Before then dosing is a waste of money IMHO. Regular water changes will replenish any trace elements used by corraline algae or hitchhiking corals.

B.

[verynewatthis]

well i put about 100 lbs of good rock and took alot of the water out of the old tank. so i dont think it will cycle much at all...well i hope...as far a corals i just put in the very big bubble coral "about 18 inches across"and a few zoos and shrooms...but i have a friend local that will frag alot of stuff for me.. and i want my tank to be able to keep up with all the new stuff...rich hancock

[garagebrian]

Sounds like a light load right now. In the future if you are going to have lots of corals, especially SPS then you'll need to be concerned with Calcium, Alk, and magnesium. With heavy loads you need to worry about strontium(spelling?) One rule that is good to follow in dosing is that do not dose what you cannot test.

B.

[verynewatthis]

well i know the load is light right now but i want to set up for all the new stuff..and most of it is sps...so i want to give it a good start now...dose that make sence....rich hancock