AAAARRRRRGH Hair Algae Please Help me!!!!!!

[georgeortiz]

O.K.
I officially detest hair algae in my tank. I have researched alot on the subject and have tried a few things to get rid of the nuicsane in my tank but, it won't go away. Someone help please!
I have addressed my circulation issues by installing a couple of closed loops one with a scwd the other with a closed loop manifold. Each run by a mag 5. I converted over to a spray bar on my return and re did my rock scape. I am running a fuge with a plenum and have noticed my good algae is not doing well. This further tells me that the bad algae is winning its battle. My coraline algae which had been growing well has also halted. Another red flag. Yes I have been doing water changes every two weeks at first and I just tried to go to once a month but, this extra two weeks seemed to give the algae a foot hold again. I was really please with the progress my reef was making. I was getting some great purple coraline algae and coral growth. But, now my nice looking tank has sporadic tufts of hair algae ruining the scenery. Please someone help me!! The patience is not running out but, the ideas certainly are. BTW, I do not want to add anymore elements to my tank which create more of a bio-load. I know that the problem can certainly be fixed without that. Just knowing how and effectively executing the plan is the problem. HELP!

[Polkster13]

Algae needs two things to grow: Light and nutrients. Limit one or both and you will reduce the algae in your tank. In reefs, reducing the lights is not much of an option. So that leaves nutrients. Algae uses nitrates and phosphates to grow (look at a bag of fertilizer and you will see that these two are the majority of the ingredients).

First thing to do is do a water test for these two. Once you have determined which one (or both) that are excessive, you can start looking for the cause of the excess of these two.

Questions:

What are your water parameters? Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phosphate, Calcium, PH, et cetera?

Are you using RO water for your water changes? If not, test the tap water and see if it has chloramine or phosphates. Chloramine cannot be removed from the tank like chlorine. Water treatment only makes it non-toxic but the compand left over can be used by algae as a food source.

Are you using activated carbon in your tank? If so, test it to see if it is leaching phosphate into the tank. PM me and I will tell you how to do the test.

[DeletedAccount]

What salt are you using? Will you post your exact parameters?

[georgeortiz]

I am going to test tonight when I get home and post my results. Last time round when I tested I found phosphates in my tank so I removed the filter pads I had been using in my sump to catch the small pieces of southdown which sometimes got stirred up. I tried running carbon but, this really did not seem to help much. I guess I should have known better than to start the topic without the parameters. I am just a little irritated about the whole thing and want to get it under control. :?

[Polkster13]

Your carbon may be the culprit. Also, unless you are rinsing the pads regularly they will build up with DOS and then start breaking down and leaching back into the tank.

Are you using RO water or tap water for water changes and evaporation top-off?

[georgeortiz]

I am using an ro/di unit and have just changed out the filter media a couple of weeks ago. I also rid myself of the filter pads and carbon a month and a half ago. Upon doing this I also did a 30% water change in the tank to rid myself of the agents causing the algae.

[jay3]

Get a tang. I have a yellow tank that completely removed all the hair algea in my tank. Bioload is minimal if this is a larger tank.

[alexwolf]

Getting a tang is a temporary solution, but not the answer to the problem. You really need to find out whats causing the problem to address is correctly.

[MikeyBoy]

I say get a tang too.
I had some hair algea and it was gone withing 2 days.
Those guys love that stuff.
Just buy a cheap yellow and he will probably take care of it right away.

[Polkster13]

Hhmmm... Sounds like you are doing everything correctly.

What about fish/coral food? How often are you feeding and what are you using as food?

[georgeortiz]

I have soft corals, lps, and 1 sps which is not faring well plus an LTA.
Fish:
2 percs
1 yellow tang 5"
1 Regal Tang 5"
6 chromis 1" each
I have a 110 gallon tank.
I feed brine sporadically in small amounts and red and green seaweed in small amounts everyother day. I have tried to go a few days without feeding either to see if the tangs make a dent in the algae and they really just forage. I really don't think that there is anything that will miraculously rid my tank of the hair algae. I just need to find the root cause and change things.

[alexwolf]

Why dont you try running some Phosban through a phosban reactor? Cut the dose in half though.

[georgeortiz]

I was running phosban as well. I just put it in the sleeve and then in the sump not in the reactor. Does it make that much of a difference? I was running it for about 8 weeks. I just removed it a couple of days ago and was thinking of loading up another batch again.

[alexwolf]

I know Pete just got a reactor from Two Little Fishies, and its meant for a 150 gal tank. I bet pressurizing it and forcing the water to run through it will work better than a filter sock. The best part is that the reactor is like $35. If you wanna order one, Ill go in with you to split shipping. I want one too!

[georgeortiz]

Does anyone have some salifert test kits
(ammonia,nitrate,nitrite,phosphate,alkalinity,calc ium) also, ph and tds meters that maybe they could bring by to help me get a handle this problem.

I think maybe if I get some reliable test results I can get a good solution to the issue. And also compare the results to my test kit results to see if I need to trash my kits or not.

Presently, I am using seachem and seatest kits right now and I don't know how reliable my TDS and PH meters are either.

I just keep telling myself remember you get what you pay for.

[GaryP]

Don't be fooled by a low phosphate test result. Some phosphates won't show up on a test. If you have hair algae its a safe bet that you have high phosphates. I don't even bother testing for phosphates anymore. IMO a positive phosphate test is green (or red or brown) stuff growing in the tank.

Gary

[georgeortiz]

GaryP,
Thanks for chiming in. You are correct it sort of seems pointless to test for phophates when you know you already have them.

I know I have posted this very topic several times. IYO what is the best course of action?

[DeletedAccount]

Make sure you are using a pure water source. Even with new filters, make sure that the RO/DI unit is giving you good water with a TDS meter. I would lend you mine but someone already borrowed it and did not return it.

[Tim Marvin]

A 30% water change won't drop the nutrients in the tank much unless you are doing it every month. The solution is dilution! You will need to do a 30% change probably every week for 4-6 weeks to really get it down. Then keep up with water changes, keep snails, and a tang is always a nice addition to the tank. I like to keep things more natural than adding tons of media and chemicals.

[georgeortiz]

Tim,
O.K.
So I should just go ahead and do a 30% water change and this will get rid of the hair algae altogether. I guess this would take a month or so to be full accomplished. So what should be a long term strategy. Just Regular water Changes?

BTW what is an acceptble TDS meter reading range?

[GaryP]

IMO, grazers are an important part of algae control, however, you really are treating the symptoms and not the disease. While its easy to say go buy a fish, or a clean up crew, you are not really addressing the root cause of the problem. Water quality is the cause, not a lack of herbivores. As with almost every issue in this hobby it comes back to water quality and how we manage it.

Every time we feed the tank we are adding phosphates. It all comes down to ratio of phosphates removed to phosphates added. The engineers call that mass balance.

Nutrient removal is where its all at!!! In other words: skimming, refugiums, and chemical filtration. Remember that Tang or crab, or snail does remove some phosphate through growth, but it also excretes a large percent of it back into the water in the form of waste. Isn't that where it came from in the first place? Fish food that was "cycled" through the fish?

As for controlling phosphates through water changes, hmmmm. I'll admit that can be helpful as part of an overall strategy. Howver, remember that while you are removing phosphates through the water changes, you are also dosing your tanks on a daily basis every time you feed. You may be at a point where you are chasing your tail and are in a losing battle if water changes are the main tactic for phosphate control.

The key to effective nuisance algae contol isn't grazers, but removing it from the system altogether. I don't feel there is any one single solution. I do feel that several of the steps that were mentioned, taken together, as a complete strategy can be very effective.

OK, my soap box just collapsed. I'll shut up now.

Gary

[Tim Marvin]

My output water is 0.13, I don't know what the magic number is for problems. It takes time to get rid of hair algae. You should be rid of it within 3 months though if you beef up the water changes and cleaners.

[georgeortiz]

Gary,
O.K. you hit on the big 3 for me well really a fourth in there with water movement. As I posted originally that I have rescaped the rock added more water flow and removed the physical media. could it be that my skimmer is not working at a level where it is not keeping up with nutrient production?
The macroalgae in the fuge isn't growing the way it should.
So if I am using the berlin method of filtration via live rock and relying on skimming to get all the extra stuff out couldn't it be my skimmer? Although it does seem to work well. I get plenty of gross gunk out of it and my ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate all measure at acceptable levels. So what I conclude is that if my macro in the fuge is not doing well it is becaus the micro has too strong of a foot hold since there is not enough nutrient export due to a weak skimmer. What do you think?

[GaryP]

Phosphate Mass Balance: Inputs = Outputs (Excess input results in an increase in phosphate levels, whether measurable or not).

Sources (Inputs): Water, Salt, Food, Additives, Skin (phosphate soaps)


Means of Removal (Ouputs):

Skimming,

Chemical Filtration (Carbon & Scavengers),

Precipitation (Kalk),

Conversion to Biomass (Herbivores & Macro),

Water Changes,

Physical Harvesting, (Siphoning, physically removing hair algae, harvesting Macro, physical filtration.)

[georgeortiz]

GaryP,
Can you explain how the precipitaion (KALK) helps with output. I guess you mean dosing KALK. Is that right?

[GaryP]

George,

There is no single solution for hair algae control. I think you need to try several of the things that I and others have mentioned. I have two tanks running now. One has almost no hair algae, the other has a small problem. Both recieve the same water, water changes, food, and supplements. I am much more aggressive in my phosphate control strategy (water changes, dripping kalk, carbon, & phosphate scavenger) in the one with the hair algae and I am gaining some ground, but why the difference?

This is where the hobby is as much an art as a science. Sometimes we just have to take what knowledge is available to us and try to find a solution that is right for that instance and that system. My suggestions is to make one change at a time and wait to see what the result is, then move on to another change. In this way we can at least try to be somewhat scientific in our management approach.

I have seen some systems with huge, highly efficient skimmers that have pretty bad hair algae problems. I have also seen some tanks with POS bakpak type skimmers with no hair algae. What is the lesson there? To me it is that there is no single strategy for a particular problem. There are no magic bullets (like buying a Tang). Sorry Mikey... If you want a magic bullet, I'm sure some of the LFS will be glad to sell you one. If not a fish, than a cleaner crew, or some chemical. While all may be beneficial, usually no single item is going to solve your problem.

We have to look at our aquariums as a system, not just single pieces of equipment. I'm not saying that your skimmer is not the problem. I would guess if its removing stuff fairly efficiently that it isn't. I know I have been guilty of that in the past.

HTH,
Gary

[GaryP]

I've never seen any scientific information on this, maybe JimD can help out here. However, ortho (inorganic) phosphate is supposedly converted into an insoluble form of calcium phosphate by the addition of calcium hydroxide (Kalkwasser.)

If phosphate is precipitated and not in solution in the bulk water it is not bioavailable. Meaning algae cant utilize it for growth. A lot of phosphate is supposed to be precipitated in a new tank on the fresh surface of aragonite. The aragonite develops a thin layer of calcium phosphate over its surface and reaches a point where it is no longer capable of absorbing more. I think this is basically how phosphate scavengers (phosorb, phosban, etc.) work. While they are not calcium based, they provide a fresh, chemically reactive surface for phosphate ions to attach.

They use organic phophates (phosphate esters and phosphonates) in industrial water treating to precipitate calcium to prevent it from forming other less desirable deposits such as calcium carbonate (lime) and calcium sulfate (gypsum). Calcium phosphate makes a "fluffy" precipitate that is easily flushed out rather than making a hard deposit like the lime scale I'm sure that you are familiar with.

Gary

[JimD]

How kalkwasser precipitates P04 isnt really compleatly understood, (Gary, we've had this discussion before, lol) theres some theories about water movement, dead spots and Ph, but as of yet, I havent read anything conclusive. The fact is, it works, if you suspect a higher than normal P04 level, which I think we all agree on, take advantage of kalkwassers ability to help removing it. My generic advise to most all unwanted algae controll is this:
RO/DI-tds at zero,
Drip kalk,
Raise Ph to 8.5-6 temporarily (two weeks),
Maintain Alk at 12 Dhk for two weeks,
Make sure your refugium is working properly,
Manually prune as much as possible,
Use a reasonable cleanup crew,
And probably the most important,,,
Be patient, it WILL go away.

[DeletedAccount]

Perfectly said, JimD!

[GaryP]

Jim,

I could start talking chemistry but I'd just put to sleep the folks that I haven't already. I've noticed that is the most common reaction to my chemistry chats. Phosphate chemistry is very complex. It can form all kinds of polymers and weird configurations.

Personally I think you probably get something like calcium pyrophosphate (Ca2P2O5) formed. It just may be that plain old calcium phosphate is formed at the higher pH's you get from using Kalk. Another theory is that at the very high pH at the point that Kalk is dripping you get some weird chemical reactions occuring.

Most metal salts are considerably less soluble as the pH increases. I'm surprised no one has looked at the impact Kalk has on the solubility of some of the more toxic metals like lead and copper.

Gary

[CD]

I could start talking chemistry but I'd just put to sleep the folks that I haven't already


Ahhhh BS! I could listen to you talk about this stuff for hours!! ;)

Wendy

[GaryP]

Wendy,

You are the exception to the rule. You're a reefer mutant. Besides if I use enough big words people just assume I know what I'm talking about.

Gary

[CD]

You're a reefer mutant


LMAO - aren't we all? :lol:

Wendy

[GaryP]

Nope, I'm a reefer prevert, subspecies acroprevertii.

Gary

[JimD]

Its that reefer that made you mutate! lol

[GaryP]

Nope, it was from snorting that Kalk I scored from you Jim.

Gary

[CD]

Nope, I'm a reefer prevert, subspecies acroprevertii.

Gary

Bwahahaha...OK - stoppit! I can't stop laughing...heheh... :moon:


Wendy

[GaryP]

Look, Wendy has new emoticons. The dirty kind. I only thought you could do that on Yahoo. I'll show you mine if you show me your's. I think we got off-topic just a little bit.

Gary

[JimD]

YIKES!!! You snorted kalk??? Welll, that certainly explains alot..
:-)

[GaryP]

YIKES!!! You snorted kalk??? Welll, that certainly explains alot..

It does make the color in my acros a bit more "vibrant." Besides you haven't lived until you snorted Kalk and sat around all night working out phoshate stoichiometry reactions.

Gary

[georgeortiz]

O.K.
Thanks guys for your input. I guess we can close this thread and I will go ahead and move forward with the info I got today and keep at it.

Thanks again to all of you who replied.

[CD]

Wendy has new emoticons


Actually, they are right there...underneath where it says "view more emoticons"... :wtf: That one is my favorite...eye twitching...heheh.


Wendy

[GaryP]

George,

We can't close this thread, we are having to much fun.

See what I mean? I start talking chemistry and people start wandering off towards the door.

Gary

[JimD]

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz

[GaryP]

OK, its official, I bored the only other chemical head around here. Where is Larry when I need him.

On second thought, all Larry wants to talk about is the evils of alkalinity. I'd be over there taking a nap with Jim.

Gary

[NaCl_H2O]

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz

Somebody wake me up when Gary is done :zzz:

George - it is all about balance, and imbalance you may need to introduce to re-balance. Problem is, nothing really tells you when you are approaching balance except maybe experience. Test kits, etc. are just a minor glimpse into what's happening.

Maybe Tim Marvin can come over and "Taste" your water every day or two :shock:

Seriously, lots of good suggestions above - be patient ...

And don't use the "C" word around Gary again :roll:

[Ram_Puppy]

by all means I agree with the majority, treat the issue, not the sympton, another great hair algea eater is a Black Sailfin Blenny.

[GaryP]

Besides, hair algae is a great excuse to go to the LFS.

Gary

[Shark_Bait]

George I know excatly what you are going through. Had this problem before. My water parameters were good. Seemed like the hair alage was acting as part of the fuge. Did water changes and it helped some. Got a pair of lettuce nudibranches (spelling) and they made a good dent. Only way I was able to win this war was to take the rock out of the tank scrub it down with a tooth brush and leave it in a curing tub for a week+. Did it in sections so I didn't take all the rock out at once. Not the easiest way but worked for me.

[Tim Marvin]

I do all four of these things on one tank, and everything but the skimmer on the other, and no sign of hair in either tank. I feed heavily and daily, but I do the water changes almost ritualistically.




Means of Removal (Ouputs):

Skimming,

Chemical Filtration (Carbon & Scavengers),

Precipitation (Kalk),

Conversion to Biomass (Herbivores & Macro),

Water Changes,

[Tim Marvin]

Another note, I dose a lot of Kalk!

[georgeortiz]

Thank guys!

[bprewit]

The question in this post has already been answered but wanted to say I had hardcore hair algae in my tank until recently. Never had algae problems but tank crashed when away, restarted tank and poof man I had bad algae. So bad you couldnt see the rocks due to the huge amounts of algae that would grow to 6" in length and coverd almost everything in the tank. I ran carbon, refugium, water changes, increased alk, new skimmer, reduced light cycle, scrubbed the rocks, phosphate remover, everything I could think to try and everything I had ever read to try. I finally got online and ordered mexican turbos. I called premium aquatics and asked them to ship me two dozen of the largest they had. Holy smokes man they delivered big time and some snails were over 3" across! I turned all lights off for two days, scrubbed and pulled as much algae as I could, and added the snails. Started lights with reduced cycle on the third day and by the end of the first week I honestly had no algae left in my tank. Traded half of the turbos back to LFS and a month later everthing is looking good. I dont know exactly what caused the huge bloom to start but I do know that no matter what I did it wouldnt go away. My nitrate readings were less than 3 during all this, phosphate was almost non-existant, and all other parameters were as close to perfect as I could get. Even bought all new test kits thinking maybe I was getting bad readings and missing the problem. I know that probably nitrates or phosphates started the initial problem and the algae quickly used up the nutrients so when I checked the levels it all seemed great but still once I started growing it was very hard to stop. Bad thing about the huge turbo's is they are pretty **** strong and will topple rocks and corals like a mini powerlifter. One other thing to mention is my macro in my fuge wasnt growing all that well, though it wasnt dying off it just didnt grow anywhere near the amount the hair algae was. I started to add iodine which I know is a nutrient for hair algae as well, but it caused my macro (feather calupera) to grow at a amazing rate! This may not work in every tank and maybe I was just lucky and recieved really hungry starving snails, but it definatly worked in my tank. Best of luck!

[Ram_Puppy]

bprewit, you probably had a high load of organic phosphate, or is it inorganic, one does not show up on test kits, the other does, also, if your hair algae bloom was large enough, it would pull the phosphate right out of the water befor eyou had a chance to test it, i.e. it was still getting fertilized, enough to stay allive and grow, but you just couldn't see the fertilizer. novel solution.

[DeAngelove]

Hey George -
I agree with the majority on here... but have one little thing to add. :)

Do you have any plants in your tank or sump/fuge?
I was having a serious hair algae & bryopsis problem this summer, then I added a few mangroves to my nano tank. I also did the whole wc & add critters bit, as well. It cleared up pretty quickly, thankfully, and hasn't been back since! :)

I think I saw a rule somewhere that the average was 1 mangrove pod/per 10G of tank volume. I have 2 in 10G nano... just as a reference. :)

HTH

DAB :)

[DeAngelove]

LOL... and I forgot to add that I like Gary's theories & discussions on the "C" word that I'm not supposed to use around him! ;) :P

I know I've learned alot from them, and my tank has definitely benefited! :D

[GaryP]

Just a note about adding herbivores to your tank. I may have been misunderstood earlier.

By addressing the water quality issues you can limit the amount fo further growth of the algae. However, it won't go away on its own. There will always be enough nutrients for it to stay alive. This is where the herbivores come in for some remedial action.

I fought smome major hair algae battles for years and unfortunately was forced to follow the advice of an LFS, because of a lack of any other good resources. Then came the internet and I found the GARF site. They basically originated the clean-up crew business. I got a shipment from them and was hair algae free for the first time within a few weeks. I know some folks here aren't real big GARF fans, but they have done a lot in terms of education and management of hair algae. Those dwarf hermits they sell are still the best thing I have ever seen for the control of hair algae. IMO hair algae management requires physical, biological and chemical methods to get complete control.

Gary

[mathias]

tasting saltwater bad.....

[Chip]

The GARF clean up crew is awesome!!!