Ca Reactor, Kalk, or Both?

[NaCl_H2O]

Looking for some of our expert's (esp. large SPS load) opinions? I have never dripped Kalk, and talked to someone yesterday that had not either until recently and was amazed at the improved SPS growth. I understand that someone on MAAST (Jim or Tim?) had a large SPS factory once with both a Ca Reactor and Kalk drip to keep up with the SPS demand.

Is there an advantage to running both a Ca Reactor AND dripping Kalk? DO they do the same thing? ... or is a Ca Reactor primarily DkH & other trace element maintenance, and Kalk a more efficient Ca boost?

This is all probably buried in a water chemistry article somewhere, so please include a link if you have one of these bookmarked?

I am not in need of a HUGE Ca load yet, but hope to be in the future :-D

As always, your advice & opinions are much appreiated!

Thx - Steve

[captexas]

Jim Norris had the SPS tank of all tanks in our area and only used a Kalk reactor along with his daily dosing of I think ESV B-Ionic. I think he tried using a calcium reactor, but could never get it dialed in and gave up on it. He had incredible growth in his 240g tank. There are a couple of others there that only use Kalk reactors - JimD and I think Tim.

[GaryP]

Chris,

I thought he was using a Calcium & Kalk reactor, as well as B-ionic. I may be wrong. I know he must have had a huge calcium demand.

Gary

[::pete::]

Jim ran 2 if I remember correctly one from Matt and the other a Precision Marine as well as kalk and did does B-Ionic daily.

Im not sure on the chemistry part of it all, but I started dripping yesterday and my PH is up and steady now. We will see if it makes a growth difference in the weeks ahead.

[GaryP]

I think that both systems have advantages. I think there are some definite advantages to running both, namely that their disadvantages are offset by running by both together.

Gary

[mathias]

some ideas of setups? if you get both how much you going to spend on each and such and I saw a dosing pump as well is that needed?

[GaryP]

Yes, a peristaltic pump is required for doing. You need a small pump like a maxijet to stir, a peristaltic pump for dosing, and the actual mixing reactor.

JimD is the expert on Kalk reactors. Anything more than what I have mentioned here I would suggest you bounce off him.

Gary

[jroescher]

What are the disadvantages? I've seen alot about the advantages but nothing about why not to drip kalk except for overdosing.

[GaryP]

Dripping Kalk will require you to add buffer for alkalinity. A Calcium Reactor adds carbonate alkalinity as well as calcium.

Kalk does contribute some alkalinity through the neutralization of CO2, but CO2 competes with other acids such as organic acids which come from biological activity.

Gary

[matt]

You might want to read up on some chemistry articles by Randy Holmes-Farley before making this decision so that you fully understand the differences between the way a calcium reactor works and the effects of dripping KW. There are lots of people who would advocate using both, but I'm probably not one of them, although a case could be made for using either a calcium reactor or KW for your primary means of replenishment and then supplementing with the other; either by occasional KW dripping (or dripping a specific amount every night) or by using KW to replace all your evaporation and then using a calcium reactor dialed way back to increase CO2 (bicarbonate in water) which helps the calcium hydroxide (KW) to provide more carbonate. A couple of things that I think are worth thinking about:

1. Well designed and constructed calcium reactors, set up and adjusted correctly, will not depress tank PH below normal reef levels, and will really handle high calcium demands. KW alone will not fully replenish calcium and carbonate for most highly stocked reef tanks.

2. You don't need a "kalk reactor" to drip KW; in fact, those are pretty new items. They do really make life easier, though. But, you can simply mix up a 5 gallon jug of KW, and use a siphon/two-holed stopper arrangement to allow it to maintain the water level in your sump, replacing all fresh water with KW. It's cheap, and it works GREAT. But, it also means mixing, stirring, letting settle, and siphoning off KW into a big jug almost every day, and setting it up near your sump. PITA!

3. There are some indications that certain calcium reactor media contain fairly high levels of heavy metals and phosphates, and the dissolution of these substances in water is ph dependent. This means that at a reactor ph like 6.8, there is much more of this stuff coming off the media into your tank than you might want. KW, at the opposite end of the ph extreme, does not present this problem and may help to precipitate phosphates out of your tank water. You might want to look at some articles about this, and choose media that has lower levels of these things.

4. I read somewhere once a fairly involved article that discussed the interaction of KW and a calcium reactor, the conclusion being that they tend to interfere with each other rather than compliment. This might have to do with CO2 use by corals and KW, meaning that in essence, the corals needing CO2 for photosynthesis might be competing with the KW, something weird like that. I didn't really understand the article, it was a while ago, and I can't remember who wrote it. I bet if you search the reef chemistry forum on reef central, you'll find lots of threads discussing this very issue. Since lots of people use both successfully, my feeling has been that this article might not be too reliable, but I'd be interested if you find anything out.

Jim Norris did use KW, with a reactor made by JimD, and a LOT of liquid supplements to maintain his reef. He never used a calcium reactor of mine; he did borrow one of the first I made with the intent of setting it up, but never did. Eventually John Moffett (arizona coral farm) bought it and used it on his grow out tanks. I have built one kalk reactor; it was pretty cool looking, and I sure hope it works well... Gator bought it and spent so much time looking for the right peristaltic pump that he never fired it up by the time I moved.

Keep us informed about what you do!

[NaCl_H2O]

Thanks to all for the great info, and as usual, thank's to Matt for his in-depth response :-D Why did you move again?

Looks like I have lots of searching reading to do. For now, I have a very light bio load and mostly "Playing" with the Ca Reactor to learn how it works. I was thinking of supplimenting KW (as Matt suggested) and not using it fulltime, so I was looking at $0 investment (Bucket & drip hose) for now.

Thanks again, and I guess I'll start digging & reading ... and brushing up on my Chemistry! ;)

[scuba_steveo]

I am no expert but here is what I am doing and I am happy with the results so far.

I started with a very nice calcium reactor that Matt built for me. Actually, it is awesome. Calcium levels are very easy to control. The Ph did drop when I set it up, but not much at all. I did set it up to my controller so that the CO2 would turn off when the Ph dropped below 7.9 but I decided to remove the controller and just run the CO2 24/7. The result was a slightly lower Ph but like Matt said above, "Well designed and constructed calcium reactors, set up and adjusted correctly will not depress tank PH below normal reef levels", and mine never did. I did want to raise the Ph higher so I did start adding kalk. I did not want to mix kalk and mess with pumps so I went an easy route. I added the tunze kalk dispenser to my osmolator auto top off. So I am now running the calcium reactor and topping off with kalk both 24/7. The result is high calcium and a nice stable Ph. The reason my Ph was dropping at night is because I decided to turn off my refugium lights at night. I could not easily find a way to keep the refugium lights on in my fish room at night without in lighting up the tank. Blake's setup being in two different rooms allows him to run the two rooms on reverse light cycles and his Ph does not swing at all. Since all my tanks are in one room this is not an option for me. I hope this is understandable because it is late and I am very tired.

[NaCl_H2O]

I am no expert but here is what I am doing and I am happy with the results so far.

Steve, a couple of questions ...

What's your "tank PH thats not below normal reef levels"? Are you able to maintain PH > 8.0 on an average basis?

Is the Kalk in your topoff having any ill efects on your topoff pump or plumbing?

With just my Ca Reactor my PH would climb to about 8.0 during the day, and drop to 7.8 at times. Since I added a second stage effluent chamber, the PH is 8.0 - 8.1. My fuge is on a reverse cycle and is getting good Macro growth which is also starting to help.

[Tim Marvin]

I use Oceanic salt which is high in Calcium to start with, and drip kalk. The systems stay remarkably stably dripping kalk for make up water. We do a lot of SPS fragging and have tanks full of SPS with no calcium problems. Calcium stays above 500 with just water changes and Kalk dripping. PH is in the 8.0-8.3 range constantly.
Jim and I have tried about everything out there at one time or another, and always revert back to Kalk. The reactors were always too hard to dial in and keep dialed in. Just about the time you get it running just right, you have to add more media or change the bottle. Then you have to start dialing all over again. Use kalk and ESV products, Jim ran kalk and B-ionic at the end with doses of mag.
Save your money and your mind, get a peristaltic pump or osmoregulator and use ESV kalk. Unless your tank is absolutely full of SPS and you can't see any rock, you'll keep up with calcium demand doing this method, as well as routine water changes with a high calcium salt mix like Oceanic.

[::pete::]

Hers a DIY Kalk reactor Link (http://jjgeisler.com/reeftank/diy_kalkwasser_reactor.htm)

[JimD]

That design has one very large flaw,,,, the screw on top, I tried that and found it nearly impossible to seal air tight, once it did finally seal, it was a real bear to unscrew! I came up with a modification for that in the frm of a rubber cap. Theres also IMO a lot of unnecessary plumbing involved that can be eliminated to reduce cost.

[GaryP]

Jim,

Do you have any good DIY kalk reactor links?

Gary

[NaCl_H2O]

I guess I am confused about the need/use of a Kalk Reactor? I always thought Kalkwasser needed to "Sit" for several hours and then you dripped the clear Kalk water and discareded the surface scum and precipitant? Wouldn't a Kalk "Reactor" keep all this suspended in the mixture?

Can someone explain the difference between dripping KW and using a KW reactor? Pros/Cons if any between the two? I seems that mix, sit, drip is much easier than the whole KW reactor thing, unless there are big benefits I don't understand?

[JimD]

Gary, I havent really seen any "good" articles, most are pretty generic, non-specific and centered around sales. Lemmee do some research and see if theres any new info out there.
Reactors are just a way to simplify the process of adding kalk, the drip method requires much more work as opposed to a reactor that adds it during routine top-off. The reactors output is controlled by a float switch to compensate for eveporation, unlike the drip method adds at a constant rate allowing for the possibility of flooding. Basicly, a reactor is another way to automate the system.

[GaryP]

I understand that and if you keep working on me you just might convince me to put a Kalk system on my new tank. The only problem is that I don't have a good way to hold water for automatic top off.

I was looking for some sort of DIY plans and operational hints like the one that was shown earlier.

Gary

[matt]

I guess I am confused about the need/use of a Kalk Reactor? I always thought Kalkwasser needed to "Sit" for several hours and then you dripped the clear Kalk water and discareded the surface scum and precipitant? Wouldn't a Kalk "Reactor" keep all this suspended in the mixture?

What a "kalk reactor" does is basically stir up the water in a tube that has a lot of calcium hydroxide powder in it, so that the water is fully saturated, then dose this into your tank with a VERY slow pump, usually a medical grade peristaltic dosing pump. It does this by pumping fresh water into the tube, which then forces the saturated KW out. Usually you set it so that the pump stirs the mixture, then it sets for a few minutes, then the KW is forced out the top; this keeps most of the powder in the tube. If you get the right size tube and stirring pump, you can actually be stirring and dosing at the same time. I'd really like to see the one i made for Gator in action, because I tried a few stirring pumps before settling on the smallest pan world in a 14" tube. It seemed to work just right; lifting enough of the powder off the bottom to keep the water fully saturated, but not so much that it created a cloud of powder that got dumped into the tank.

The good thing about kalk reactors is that once the tube is filled, air never reaches it, so the calcium hydroxide can sit in the tube for a long time without calcium carbonate forming. The excess powder just stays in the tube, and you can put in ALOT, like a week's worth, at one time, then forget about it. It's still not as convenient as a calcium reactor, and most people would say that it's not as effective at keeping up with a really big demand. I really wouldn't worry about the ph issues; especially if you have a good skimmer. With my set up, the ph never (or rarely) dropped below 8.0, even though my effluent ph was around 6.75-6.8. But, KW just seems to do really good things for tanks over the long run; I bet it has something to do with the substances found in most calcium reactor media. Anyone looking for a new niche is this hobby should consider producing (or finding and marketing) reactor media that is PURE calcium carbonate; no metals, etc...

[Tim Marvin]

Check out a tunze reactor. They look very easy to replicate.

[Tim Marvin]

If you want to just buy one JimD makes a nice set-up out of PVC, and they work great.

[scuba_steveo]

Steve, a couple of questions ...

What's your "tank PH thats not below normal reef levels"? Are you able to maintain PH > 8.0 on an average basis?

Before adding the kalk I was running as low as 7.9 (which is not too low IMO) and now I never run below 8.05


Is the Kalk in your topoff having any ill efects on your topoff pump or plumbing?

No. The only line the kalk is in is the top off line fron the tunze calcium dispensor to the tank


With just my Ca Reactor my PH would climb to about 8.0 during the day, and drop to 7.8 at times. Since I added a second stage effluent chamber, the PH is 8.0 - 8.1. My fuge is on a reverse cycle and is getting good Macro growth which is also starting to help. It sounds like your Ph is good. Stick with what you got. If you calcium levels are high and your Ph remains above 8, dont mess with anything.

[scuba_steveo]

OK, here is my setup.
The first picture is my calcium reactor. I do not have too much to say about it other than it is awesome.

The second picture you can see my RODI water container (trash can), the tunze kalk dispenser that hooks up to my tunze osmolator, and the calcium reactor in the background.

Everyone knows how the calcium reactor works; here is how the kalk dispenser works. The osmolator sensor in the sumps notices a drop in the water level and it kicks on the pump in the bottom of the trash can. The pump pumps top off water through a one way check valve and into the bottom of the kalk dispenser. The water enters the dispenser and stirs up the calcium hydroxide in the dispenser. The RODI top off water is now turned into kalkwasser and is delivered to the main tank. All I do is fill the disperser with the calcium hydroxide about every 2-3 weeks. Nice and easy, stable Ph and high calcium levels.

[Jimnorris]

Hello everyone!
After many experiments for me and my tank I finally found that dripping kalk (24/7) and ESV products were the best. Jim'D kalk reactor replaced a calcium reactor, which Tim is right I had all sorts of problems dailing them in. I tried two kinds ---My Reef Creations and a Krolian. Once I was used to kalk I did upgrade to a Presion Marine kalk reactor. My next tank will have a kalk reactor and ESV products.
Hope this helps.
Jim

[NaCl_H2O]

Jim, thanks for the info on your experience! I have a Korralin reactor and I just added a second effluent chamber that I made out of 4" PVC. I have very little calcium demand currently, so I am not having to push it very hard. I am very much still "Playing" with it. I like the idea of the Ca Reactor because (in theory) it provides DkH stability and trace elements ... I was hoping this could reduce/eliminate dosing ESV for my 500+g system.

What I am thinking of attempting is keeping my Ca Reactor, but not pushing it (dialing it) to its MAX, and using KW in some form to suppliment the Ca load.

Steve - the Tunze KW mixer looks interesting, but I'm having a little trouble picturing how it works? I have a topoff system, but I have a large capacity pump (MAG2.5) refilling water. I assume I would need to go to a low flow (parastalic sp?) pump in order to use the Tunze KW tube (or a similar DIY). Can anyone suggest a pump?

[scuba_steveo]

I use the system with the osmolator auto top off which comes with a pump. You can come over and check it out, just give me a call.

[NaCl_H2O]

I use the system with the osmolator auto top oss which comes with a pump. You can come over and check it out, just give me a call.

Steve, thanks for the offer. Right now I am exchanging about 100 EMails with JimD on his KW reactor design so I can build one for myself. Looks like this may work well for me since I have an existing topoff system.

Anybody have suggestions for a good (an hopefully cheap) dosing pump? Would a small powerhead work, or the AquaLifter AW-20? (http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=KTALP)

[GaryP]

No, you can't use a powerhead. You need a peristaltic pump.

I don't know if this is a good one or not, but here is an example.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9965&Ntt=dosing%20pump&Ntk =All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1

Gary

[Tim Marvin]

My reactor is posted here. LMAO. Watch out is is a very high tech unit....
http://www.maast.org/modules.php?set_albumName=TimMarvin&op=modload&nam e=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&page=9

[scuba_steveo]

Tim, that looks very familiar. I really like the osmolator and kalk dispenser setup.

[GaryP]

Steve,

Check this out. It has a magnetic stirrer instead of a pump, but it will give you an idea.

http://www.myreefcreations.com/nilsen.htm

Gary

[NaCl_H2O]

After exchanging many EMails with JimD, I copied his Kalk Reactor design :-D Well maybe not a 100% replica, but close!

THANKS JIM!!

[JimD]

Hey! That certainly looks familiar! lol. Nice job there Steve! Youre very welcome. Your corals are gonna love you for it! As I said in my last email, keep a close eye on your Ph and only use a top notch grade kalk (ESV). Keep us posted with your results. Enjoy....

[Tim Marvin]

You should see the new reactor we just built for the farm....We started off adding a couple lbs of kalk to 50 gallons. It has a large capacity peristaltic pump to dose the tanks with.

[::pete::]

You should see the new reactor we just built for the farm....We started off adding a couple lbs of kalk to 50 gallons. It has a large capacity peristaltic pump to dose the tanks with.

Pictures !!!! :)

[NaCl_H2O]

Note: I have very little Ca demand to speak of yet, but I am convinced that I will continue using the DIY Kalk Reactor in combination with a non-aggresive Ca Reactor. Readings today after about 48hrs of using this combination are:

Ca = 500
DkH = 10
PH = 8.2 (Late evening reading)

Best balanced parameters I have ever had in ANY tank!

We will see if it holds, and if I can maintain it as the load increases?

Tim, let's see those monster KW Reactor pics!

[CD]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20758&item=4346901 012&rd=1

Found this while cruising eBay. Not a bad price, and thought somebody here might be interested?

Wendy