Building my closet sump, couple questions

[::pete::]

When I did mine I worked off 1 side putting in all the "guts" and then added the opposite side. Next I added the bottom and then the bracing to the top.

They should come smooth if they are being cut to size but its easy to do it yourself with a tablesaw and router. There are other ways too.

In my opinion 3/8" at least and I always get conflicting opinions on the type.

A good read when you have TIME (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96763&highlight=acrylic +fabrication) 76 pages.

Can you post a drawing?

[matt]

Personally, I wouldn't attempt this project yourself as a first acrylic fabrication project. That's a **** big sump; LOTS of water pressure. I know you don't want to hear this, but I also would not consider using anything except GOOD cast acrylic; spartech, cyro GP, or maybe plexiG.

As far as the edges go, you probably won't get good edges from a local shop; you could try regal, but I have not had good luck with them router-cutting stuff in the past. The best person to give you the edges you need is Dan.

Do you realize the dimension you gave is well over 200 gallons? It's theoretically possible you could make this out of 1/2", but I would brace it like crazy, and I'd still be nervous if I were making it. Thicker would be better. The cyro thickness calculator says to use 1", and that's cast. I know you're not planning on running it with anywhere near that much water in it, but if it fills due to power outage.... If you had two baffles, each exactly like an end (top to bottom) and spaced equally, so that the largest water holding area was 24" by 30" by 30", cyro says you can use 5/8".

Okay, let's assume you're feeling bold and decide to go for it. Cut the ends and baffles to finished size (get Dan to do it!) so they're all exactly the same width. Cut the long sides, top (that'll be your main brace, a top with the middle routed out) and bottom a little over, like 1" or so. Then find a perfectly flat and level bench to work on, lay down one long side, and attach your ends and baffles. you can get "corner clamps" or something like that to hold them square and in place while you set your pins and shoot the solvent. You will be using pins, right? You can also use a bar clamp to make SURE the edges that will eventually sit on the bottom are lined up. That's the hardest part. You can lay the other long side over the whole arrangement to put some weight on the sides/baffles while the solvent dries. Make sure you put each end in 1/2" or so from the edge of the long side, then you'll flush trim off the excess.

Once you get that far, it's time to attach this set up to the top. Assuming your side/ends/baffles were perfectly lined up, you'll have a nice flat surface to attach to the top. If not (likely) don't despair, you can fix it. What you need is a long straight edge, ( like a long piece of acrylic that's been finished on the router) then you just tape that onto the sides and use it as a fence for your router to ride along. Use heavy duty carpet tape; works great. It will take a lot of messing around to get that fence taped in the right place, but it'll work. If you had a huge router table and nerves of steel, not to mention arms to match, you could conceivably set up a fence about 30" or so away from the bit, then run your entire sump, all four sides, through that, so that one edge (top, for example) rides on the fence, the other edge gets trimmed exactly flat. If you can manage to keep the thing tight against the fence, and you have one good edge to start with, this works great. It's exactly how I eventually prepped the skimmer boxes for gluing the top and bottom. But sith something this size, you're probably better off using the portable router.

Once you've done all that, it's not too tough to get a great bond with the top and bottom. You need to have lots of little thin wedges, like pieces of wood about the size of tongue depressers that are sanded down so that one edge is like the knife edge. This is because acrylic is not flat, and no matter how well you've done, or how flat your bench is, you'll still have some gaps. So, you lay it down, then check the whole joint with thin paper as a feeler guage. In a good joint even thin paper like newspaper or cigarette paper won't go in. Any place you have a little gap, you can gently nudge a wedge under the thing, and that will fix it. The put your pins in, probably about 25-30 pins for something this size, then start shooting solvent. You'll need a few helpers; one to shoot solvent down the other side (you won't have time to go all the way around by yourself) and another to start pulling pins behind you. The best solvent for this job would be MC bond. Weldon #4 would be okay, you'll just have to work really fast, and weldon #3 would be too fast. After the thing is glued up, flush trim off the excess around the whole joint. If you didn't have any excess, you'd never get a decent joint.

Wish I was there to help you out.

[matt]

Oh yeah, for drilling big holes, use your saw hole to drill a template hole in a piece of wood, then tape that to your acrylic (carpet tape) drill a pilot hole in there, and rout the hole with a flush trim bit.

[::pete::]

Matt, thanks for the essay!

I knew you would chime in and as always with good advice.

I would like to pick your brain a little in regards to acrylic so if you have time give a call 210 825 9792

Thanks


Do you realize the dimension you gave is well over 200 gallons? It's theoretically possible you could make this out of 1/2", but I would brace it like crazy, and I'd still be nervous if I were making it. Thicker would be better. The cyro thickness calculator says to use 1", and that's cast. I know you're not planning on running it with anywhere near that much water in it, but if it fills due to power outage.... If you had two baffles, each exactly like an end (top to bottom) and spaced equally, so that the largest water holding area was 24" by 30" by 30", cyro says you can use 5/8".

It may be 200 gal, but like 75 actual and not nearly to the top. The pressure would not be from 200gals of water but the 75 galllons at like (guessing) 6-7 " of water. In my opinion 1/4" would work because we are talking ... what 75 gallons? I didnt calcualte it but you get the idea.


Okay, let's assume you're feeling bold and decide to go for it. Cut the ends and baffles to finished size (get Dan to do it!) so they're all exactly the same width. Cut the long sides, top (that'll be your main brace, a top with the middle routed out) and bottom a little over, like 1" or so. Then find a perfectly flat and level bench to work on, lay down one long side, and attach your ends and baffles. you can get "corner clamps" or something like that to hold them square and in place while you set your pins and shoot the solvent. You will be using pins, right? You can also use a bar clamp to make SURE the edges that will eventually sit on the bottom are lined up. That's the hardest part. You can lay the other long side over the whole arrangement to put some weight on the sides/baffles while the solvent dries. Make sure you put each end in 1/2" or so from the edge of the long side, then you'll flush trim off the excess.

This is not bad info, but when you do it yourself this is over kill. I personally would not have a problem making a tank if I was better at the edges. It comes with practice as well as with any job. I f I do a job foe someone I stand behind it as should anyone. The acrylic is going to bond regardless and if its done right will never leak. Then you get to the ... done right,but is it crystal clear? You are basically hiding this deal in the closet do you need to spend 800.00 on the sump for show quality?


In short ... you buy the material Ill build it and stand behind it for 3yrs. because I have faith that it will never leak done right. the labor .. like 50.00 dollars.

I have 2000000 ins with my business so no worry.

[Tim Marvin]

I agree it will probably only have 75 gallons in it. What happens if the power goes off though? How much will drain back from the tank? I'd be afraid of 1/4 inch, and go with 1/2 inch...Just me though. I like to over build and not worry.

[::pete::]

I will bet you any amount 1/4 will hold it 1/2 is just toverkill. I would stand behind it too. You have baffles that go side to side and make the actual dimensions smaller ... make sense?

[Tim Marvin]

Makes sense...I've used rubbermade tubs in the past and those 30-40 gallons tubs are probably 1/16 inch......LOL....

[::pete::]

Tim ... exactly!!!!
It rounded to hold the pressure and thts where the strenght comes from. If you did 1/4" and added baffles making the mass smaller the pressure is greatly reduced.

[matt]

1/2" is definitely not overkill on a sump this size; it's underkill! If you don't believe me, go to Cyro's website, they're one of the biggest acrylic manufacturers, and download their calculator for aquarium wall thickness. Plug in Josh's dimensions, and you get 1" minimum thickness.

As far as the procedure I posted for Josh, I hardly think it's overkill to use the best method you can when DIYing it. In fact, that's the best part about doing DIY. Regardless, this isn't for show; it's to make sure the **** thing doesn't leak, when you put it together or a year down the road.

Getting really solid solvent joints on long pieces of acrylic is tough and takes a lot of prep work. Ask Dan; he's been doing it for years.

You can't compare a rubbermaid tub to an acrylic tank. How about a balloon? That holds water, and it's only a few thousandths of an inch thick. The problem with acrylic or any rigid material that's got water bearing joints is that all the pressure gets transferred to the joints. The molded tubs are only subjected to tensile force; no joints that are getting torqued by water pressure. If you want to know the water pressure reduction that you get when adding baffles, just enter the dimensions of the largest area surrounded by "walls" in the calculator. That's how i got the 5/8" thickness for Josh's sump with the baffles. BUT, that's considering the baffles run the entire height of the wall, which they don't. Now, I have talked with a few pro fabricators and they say that the cyro calculator is a bit conservative, but not by much. They make the material, they know what kind of sheering force it can stand, and they know how much force a given quantity of water places on the joints.

BTW, Cyro also says not to use solvent welds for water bearing joints, but everyone does it. The strongest bond would be with polimerizing cement like weld-on #40. Like, you could solvent weld the sides/end/baffles together, then rout a shallow groove on the bottom for the whole assembly to drop into, then fill the groove with weld-on #40, then just drop it in place. If I was making a big sump like this, I'm pretty sure that's how I'd do it. Ultimately it's less work than getting those edges REALLY lined up, and it would be much stronger than solvent weld joints. The best, most expensive, museum quality tanks use beveled edges and polimerizing cement on all the joints. I have no idea how they make it work so that there is no squeeze out, but supposedly they can do it.

It would be fun to make several large sumps of differing thicknesses and fill them up and let 'em alone to see what happens. I just wouldn't want to run this sort of experiment in my living room!

[matt]

Matt, thanks for the essay!

I've decided for sure this project is too big and expensive

Cyro GP 1/2" is probably around $225 a sheet, just guessing, Spartech would be at least $300, but those are 5' X 8' sheets. Acrylic is pricey stuff, and sure to go higher as the price of oil goes up.

I do miss working on this stuff, though, beats writing about it!

[Andrew]

1/4" would bow quite visibly, whether extruded or cast is used; I'd give it several years max before she explodes :shock: .


Andrew

[NaCl_H2O]

Did you get a quote from Dan yet? That's not much different in size than the big one he built for me - and mine had a complex Wet/Dry built in. The finished price realy wasn't that bad considering the acrylic cost & the quality of workmanship.

[::pete::]

Matt
I hope you dont think Im attacking you personally and if it seems that way I apologize.

I think of it this way because Im setting up another system. The sump will never get filled if your design doesnt allow half the tank to empty!!

The baffles may not go top to bottom, but they stagger and go from top to within a couple inches of the bottom and the next at around an inch and a half away goes from the bottom up 6 or so inches and that strengthens that area and its repeated a couple times too.

If you got a tank with no baffles then there would without a doubt be the necessity of thick acrylic. I still beleive, calculator or not 3/8" would be fine and 1/4" would work. There is also the option to strengthen joints with an additional scrap piece of acrylic not relying on just the seem.

If you get a chance call.

[matt]

Pete; I certainly didn't get the impression you were attacking me in any way; I really enjoy arguing about this stuff!

I'm just wondering where you get the opinion that acrylic less than 1/2 the thickness that's recommended for this application by the manufacturer would work? Is it just a hunch? Years of experience building something like this? Since I've never built anything this big that would hold this much water, I would have to defer to the manufacturer, or at least to fabricators that have successfully built stuff this big.

Okay, now I have a question for Josh. Why would you need something this big? The volume calculates out to 280 gallons! If you ran 1/2 as a refugium, basically filled, and 1/2 as a sump with 10" of water you're still talking about 180+ gallons, with about 100 gallon reserve for power outages. You could really cut down on the height of this thing to save cost, unless you need a 140 gallon refugium, which I admit would be very cool.

The closest thing I've made to this is Tina's sump/refugium which was about 60" by 20" by 18", almost exactly 100 gallon capacity. I used 3/8" cyro GP, had many braces plus a top frame, and reinforced the bottom seam with weldon #40. According to the cyro calculater, I was a little undersized, but only by a few thousandths of an inch. The largest "open" area was the fuge, about 24" by 20" by 18" deep, if I remember. Anyhow, when I filled it up it looked fine (very little bowing) but I was still a little nervous about it. (there's a photo somewhere on MAAST of it) And this is a tank less than 1/2 the volume of the sump you're talking about.

[NaCl_H2O]

Joshua, it does seem that your sump/etc. may be a tad "BIG", but I didn't see mention of your system capacity? I designed my new system with an operational sump size of about 25% of the total system water capacity (Backing out glass thickness DSB depth, etc.), assuming I would run the sump about 50% - 75% full, and then planned enough reserve capacity to hold another 20% of the system capacity.

I have two interconnectd sumps 64x20x20 and 38x20x20. My tanks, fuge, sumps, etc. etc. have a "Raw" (No sand, no LR, everything filled to the brim, including sumps) capcity measurement of about 700g which I estimated "operational" capacity of about 450g. My sumps operational capacity is 110g and max capacity is about 170g which is close to my 25%/45% target. I have about 5X turnover through the sump/skimmer/UV and the balance through closed loops. If I shut down all power, I reach about 85% full in the sumps.

Each sump has a panel running the length of the sump with 4x1.5" holes to allow water to flow from one half to the other - in effect water flows 204" (17') from tank drain to sump return pump.

My original design had several baffles and ****s along this 204" path for strength (as Pete suggested) and also to keep the water turning over in the sump. Dan recommended removing most of these because my "Sump" capacity is basically the capcity between the pump inlet and the last **** - I am VERY glad I took his advice. He took other steps to reinforce the sumps, and I added a few external supports due to some slight bowing on the bigger sump.

Bottom line - plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan ... then plan some more! I changed my design dozens of tmes after talking to folks on MAAST, or looking at operational systems, then a few more times when I started working with Dan. I spent 6 months planning before I started putting things together, and I am still making changes.

I would be happy to show my system if you are interested. Seeing operational systems was probably the most useful when I was planing mine!

Good luck :-D

[Tim Marvin]

I was also thinking about the width of the joints, not just the bowing... Can 1/4 wide joint hold for a long period of time with it bowing also? Rubbermade storage containers are one piece so that gives them more strength.

[Andrew]

Joshua
You may want to think about building a saltwater pond instead. wetwebmedia.com has some articles on making indoor ponds, would be much less expensive than a huge acrylic one, or mabey one of those preformed ponds as are sold at home depot? You could have a mangrove swamp on one end and seagrass bed (with anemones) on the other. . .

Andrew

[Instar]

I seem to recall when Jim Norris's little refugium popped and he lost thousands of dollars in coral and exotic fish. That was smaller and 1/4 inch as I recall. I would not go light, also the voice of having a tank pop on me. Some valued caution can be applied from Matt's advice combined with Jims losses to come to something that takes the risk out of it as much as possible. And then there are those special moments...Joshua, I know you never drop anything or get a little clumbsy... never, right?

[matt]

That refugium was 1/2" extruded, I believe.

Josh, after thinking about this, reading the thread, and knowing you as well as I do, I suggest you find a decent used (or new) glass aquarium to use as a refugium. That would be the least expensive really secure solution that you'd be happy with. Maybe I'm crazy, but isn't it possible that the plastic tubs could degrade under the bright lights of a refugium?

Building a big acrylic one with high quality materials and workmanship would be expensive.

[z28pwr]

Josh, it may be cheaper to just buy a used 180 gallon tank then make this huge sump. You could probably get a used 180 for $350 or so.

[captexas]

Josh - sounds like an interesting project! lol. I haven't gotten to that point of figuring out what to do for sump and fuge yet for my 240. I will be limited as it will go under the stand. I'll probably end up building them out of acrylic like I did my monster sump/fuge for my 75g. That was my first acrylic project and I think it turned out pretty good. It is only 1/4in. acrylic, 36in. wide and 24in. wide, and it holds 75gallons when it is filled up completely, which has happened once when my return pump shut off the other night. I'm more worried about my glass tank breaking than the acrylic sump I built!