Cleaner Shrimp Dinner...Hawk or Sally lightfoot?

[SarahPSl]

I bought a Large Cleaner shrimp yesterday and last night saw the Sally Lightfoot dragging it behind a rock for dinner. I do have a Flame Hawk but heard that they only go after small shrimp. Could the Sally Lightfoot have killed the shrimp?


Sarah

[alexwolf]

Cleaners are very difficult to acclimate. I went through 5-6 before i learned the hard way. I acclimated the 3 i have now for 2+ hours each via drip.

[Instar]

I acclimate cleaner shrimp for a minimum of 6 hours with an open ended air line into the acclimation bucket. Its a 7 gallon bucket and I drip slowly, fill it up and then dump it and fill it again even if the salinity is an exact match to my tank. More trouble in small tanks. Just have to keep dumping it back into the tank. When ready, scoup with a cup to prevent breaking anything when moving to the tank. Many times by the time a person gets them home, they are doomed from the net and handling before they get to your tank. If the point of origin (wholesaler) drops them into fresh shipping water, not directly from the tank they were in, they are done before you even have a chance at it. (Most die in a short time after being put in your tank because they were already damaged.) If you don't contribute more damage from short acclimations (osmotic shock), then maybe it will survive. I haven't killed one yet with this method and my tank gets a good water change. The sally lightfoot is a scavenger, not a killer. It would not kill the cleaner.

[texasranchers]

I bought about $120+ of ground crew, oops clean up crew. Only few lived and I too used the drip method over a period of 5 hours. I have found that several inverts are hard to acclimate but the cleaner shrimp beat the record. They floated out of the plastic scoop, gently down onto the sand bed, behind a rock and gone. I presume dead.

[SarahPSl]

thanks for the responses!

I did only acclimate for an hour or so and had previously done the same with another cleaner and it lived a long time but I'll acclimate longer next time.

Should I worry about the Hawk and larger shrimp?

[alexwolf]

I have a flame hawk as well, and it eyes them but i think he knows he cant fit them into his mouth. He also hasnt bothered my peppermint shrimp.

[Instar]

If you get your "ground crew" from reeftopia, check the salinity before you start. If your reef is at 1.024 sg, then you have about a 24 hour acclimation time. Fill a 7 gallon bucket, empty it, fill it, empty it -- x4 times at least and slowly. I believe their tanks are the saltiest in the world. Keep acclimation containers shielded from the light and put the critters in the tank after lights out. Open the shipping box sloooowly too. You can cause instant death from an optic nerve shock on top of the stress and the pH the shipping water is likely to be. They need an open ened air line weighted to the bottom by a shell or piece of coral during this time (not an air stone). Snails, shrimp and crabs are all sensitive to osmotic pressure changes as well as changes in dKh. Your tank, if dosed all up for sps, is extremely different from what they are used to and just a change of 0.4 on the dKh over 24 hours will kill most of them. They are arriving to you at or near 7.4 dKh normally. Dosed up reefs can run as high as 14.0. Usually they are somewhere in between 8 and 10 but thats enough to wipe out quite a number of things; even fish when done too fast. Sometimes even when done slow, it still hurts. These numbers should not be confused with pH. (There are 2 different scales we measure dKh or alkalinity in as well. Alkalinity is the scale range from 2 to 4). Changes in pH, salinity and alk (dKh) cause trouble. The leading killer is dKh (alk), then osmotic shock (salinity or specific gravity) and then pH. We assume by measuring and adjusting salinity with acclimation that we have overcome alkalinity and pH, but, this assumption is only true for reefs that do not go through a rigid dosing regime or drip kalk. Dosed tanks take far longer to acclimate in order to prevent killing things or causing damages that start ick and a number of other things. I hope this makes some kind of sense. Understanding it will help acclimate without troubles.

[Reef69]

I have 2 cleaner shrimps and a coral banded shrimp..i acclimated them for an hour, about 6 months ago when i bought them..they are doing great..never had any probs..

[Tim Marvin]

OK, Larry is just trying to give you the best method. There will always be an exception, and a critter that will live forever, but overall a long slow drip is best. I've dumped corals right out of a nasty shipping bag into the tank that some how managed to do fine, but if you do this hasty acclimating on all your livestock the numbers go up. a 10% loss on one tank seems little, but 10% of 1,000 critters is a substantial figure. SO I guess what it boils down to is how much you care about your reef and the critters of the world. IMO one piece of livestock dead is too much.

[Instar]

We assume by measuring and adjusting salinity with acclimation that we have overcome alkalinity and pH,

I am glad you were successful that time and perhaps many more times. The information above is for those who are not as lucky as your are in preventing osmotic shock deaths, ick, septcemia, et al in their method of acclimation. Use it or don't... think about it after something happens. Those are measures for the indicators that are the root cause for anyone having trouble introducing new critters into their tank. I'd rather give it out than have an lfs blamed for something that may not be their fault (re: lfs bashing thats been going on here lately). I hope you never have to acclimate more than a few minutes. Test the bag of water you have the new creatures in and see where you are starting from. It is a pain. But, loosing 90% of a large order... there is a reason and we're hear to solve things like that if they can be solved.
I agree with Tim - one piece of rock dying is too much.

[MikeP]

Hawkfish are crustacean preadators in nature. If the hawk was introduced after the cleaner and kept well fed it's possible he would ignore him. Size presents no problem fi the hawkfish cannot consume the shrimp in one bit they will pick it apart or smash it into pieces.

When you do release the shrimp place it on the rocks and don't let it drift down in the tank.

[CD]

I agree with Tim - one piece of rock dying is too much.


I also agree...and you guy's info is just awesome! I have another question though. OK, you do the drip acclimation in a clean bucket...we have a chiller on our display, and the water is at a consistant 77 - 77.7 degrees F...my question is, wouldn't the water temp in the bucket end up being higher towards the end of the acclimation period with a slow drip? How much leeway in temp would one have before it would be fatal to the shrimp? I have wanted some cleaner shrimp, but am just terrified at the possibilities of fatalities with these creatures, especially after losing some clowns. :o

Larry & Tim - do you acclimate *all* of your creatures (fish and inverts) at the above stated rate, or different time frames, depending on what you are acclimating?

Wendy

[Instar]

Wendy,
I acclimate different things at different rates. Also depends on where they come from. If I am already familiar with the vendor, then I do a quick check of the bag water. If not, then I test the bag water to find out where I am starting. If the creature is very sensitive, then I acclimate longer. When I think I have it the same as the tank exactly, then I test again to find out. Its a dilution problem as there will always be some of the water it came in still having an effect. For me the water in the bucket usually gets a little cooler than the tank because its on the floor. After the acclimation is done, I either float them in a container or float the bag in the sump. I also realize that temperature plays a role in the test results, so if I have doubts, I test again after the temperature is equal to the tank. There has been a couple times I thought I had it and then decided to start all over after 12 hours of acclimation because I just didn't get it all the way done. I ususally don't drip sps corals, just use a cup and spend from an hour to 2 hours with them, filling and dumping the bag serveral times. Then they get their profilactic treatments, then floated to equalize the temperature. Such treatments are not done if I know where the coral came from and that person has done prevention as many MAAST members do. Why do I go to all this trouble? I'm breeding these things and can't afford to damage something. I also know squat about fish diseases at this point and really don't want to have to learn more about that. I know that if I can avoid damage to the slime producing glands and avoid small amounts of fin rot or bladder equalization problems that I can avoid ick and all sorts of other things. Inverts can be sensitive. I don't acclimate a rock with mushrooms on it because the shooms need to be acclimated but I want all the unseen things in that rock to live. Who knows, eggs, tiny little larva for something cool? I've had all kinds of cute little baby crabs, little baby pistol shrimp, shell fish, star fish, etc. emerge from such rocks. I have a 125 that has no live rock in it. Just mined aragonite substrate and rocks. When I look at the number of snails, brittle stars, etc in there and then see other tanks, I am amazed at how much more my "sterile" start up has in it than what people who have live rock have in their tanks. Where did all that life come from? I didn't put it in there by buying a huge order from IPSF. I know these rocks have lots of larva in them and am even more aware of that now since I started acclimating even a zoo frag. Its not for the zoos, thats for sure as they will take care of themselves for the most part.

[CD]

Larry-

Thank you VERY much for the info...yeah, I just wasn't sure if you re-bagged and floated for temp equalization after the bucket/drip acclimation. Definitely makes sense, but it wasn't mentioned, so I had to ask to be sure. :)
Are there any vendors you recommend for cleaner shrimp? Do you feel it's safer to get them from a LFS, as long as they've had them in their tanks for at least a week or more?
The reason I ask, is that I've always read that there is a high mortality rate on shipped cleaner shrimp...this being the main reason that they are rather on the pricy side (average pricing for a small to med. sized shrimp in the Austin area LFSs is $25. each IF you can find them).

Wendy

[SarahPSl]

Thank you for taking time to share this information. I know that I learned a thing or two today.

I don't really want to temp the Hawk with another shrimp but know they are beneficial. Can someone recommend another parasite eating creature? I have a neon goby but it's not helping now due to being trapped in my overflow.

[Instar]

You're welcome... by the time you take the risk and pay shipping it probably comes out the same. I've had them shipped for lack of finding them at an lfs and take my chances. I figure eliminating one more mis-handling opportunity is to my advantage and a big wholesaler wouldn't stay big if they didn't get the animals to destination in good shape. There are are a couple of good lfs near you in Austin and you could talk to the owners to set up something in regard to a cleaner shrimp. Pick it up when it gets there if it looks healthy in the bag. That way you don't take the risk of temperature shock during shipping.

As for other cleaners, there's a number of small fish that clean and blood red shrimp too. Those shrimp are a little larger. But, that hawk fish is likely to be trouble for any of the cleaners, fish or shrimp due to their size. Fish like neon gobies just dissappear because they are small enough to be swallowed. No doubt its a good thing yours is in the overflow. Likely he was chased into it. I'll have to defer to the others here for cleaners that would mix with a hawk and see what they have to offer.

[CD]

Sarah-

Have you thought about a Cleaner Wrasse?

Just a thought, and if you are looking for something to clean the other fish (like a cleaner shrimp), they will do the job. Don't have one myself, but saw one in a LFS tank cleaning a Tang.

Wendy

[CD]

you could talk to the owners to set up something in regard to a cleaner shrimp


Yep...I'm sure Carlos at River City Aquatics would order me a pair. Plus we are pretty close to the store, and I would be able to pick them up shortly after arrival. Thanks again, Larry - you're a gem!

Wendy

[CD]

Sarah-

Have you thought about a Cleaner Wrasse?

Just a thought, and if you are looking for something to clean the other fish (like a cleaner shrimp), they will do the job. Don't have one myself, but saw one in a LFS tank cleaning a Tang.

Wendy

I can't believe Wendy even suggested this- she knows better.
Do yourself and the reefs a favor and don't buy a cleaner wrasse.
Yes, we saw one cleaning fish at the LFS but everything I have ever read says that the cleaner wrasse will die within a couple months because they generally eat ONLY parasites. There are exceptions, but they are very difficult to keep from what I understand.
My apologies for the mis-information but there does seem to be lot of contradictions towards the cleaner wrasse longevity.

Chris

[SarahPSl]

CD - Dual personalities? J/K

Thanks again for the suggestions. I finally managed to retrieve my neon and I'll keep my fingers crossed that he doesn't get eaten. I am going to look for the largest shrimp I can find and acclimate it correctly and hope for the best.

[CD]

CD - Dual personalities? J/K




Yes..... only 15 more to go. :shock: :) :shock: