Pairing up a couple of bullies...

[Ram_Puppy]

Hey all...

I am attempting to pair up a pair of bullies. Two absolutely stunning sumatran Gold Stripe Maroon Clowns. I was initially going to let them try to co-exist in the tank together to see if after a short scuffle things would settle down.

As fate would have it (and common sense) they weren't even out of their seperate bags before I noticed agression (Putting their noses to the walls of the bags and swimming at each other with all their might!) I didn't even bother putting them in the same tank together after that, I figured a more subtle approach would be in order... so I want to run the new plan by you.

The setting: a 10 Gallon tank (recently a fancy goldfish quarantine tank) Using an Eclipse hood (light and filter) + heater. I figure why waste a good tank, so I will be putting live sand from my fuge in there as well. Live rock will consist of one moderately sized piece per fish. (by moderate, to the tank of course, we are talking a softball a piece, maybe less.)

A plexi-glass divider will be placed lengthwise, from front corner to back corner, dividing the tank into two right angle triangles. holes for flow will be drilled into the plexi-glass, and I'll be putting approximately 1/4 inch deep teeth on the top edge to allow flow to spill over the top. I have two micro-jets I purchased for my pico-remora project, they will provide some additional flow to the tank, filtration will come out of one triangle and return to the other... so there shouldn't be any dead spots.

One clown each will go on either side of the barrier. I will leave this for an appropriate amount of time, could be a week, could be two, depends on the fish. And then, each fish will be restrained (probably with a glass) and I will take out the plexi-glass divider, change the angle so different sections of the tank are divided. however, optimally, this will not disturb the landscaping to much, and the fish will still have thier 'rock' as their territory.

The idea of this, is that over the next few months, the changing dimensions of the triangles ( I may do two squares at a time as well) will move their territory, every time the establish it, and it changes, the other fish will have access to territory it once didn't, and will lose territory as well.

Now, I know fish are not the smartest things in the world, but they do have memory, and some aquarists have noted that predatory fish that grow up with potential prey that is 'to large' for their mouths when young, but a morsel when older, will continue to ignore animals they would normally predate on, theory being they have 'become part of the scenery.

I am hoping I can take this principle and ingraine the futility of combativeness into these clowns, I know that when the divider eventually goes away, combat will occur, I am hoping that by lengthening their exposure to one another that I can lessen the agression in the combat... conversely, there is always the fact it could increase it as well.

In december, both these fish will go into a 115 gallon cube aquarium.
I have already planned on getting a couple more rose bubble tips to put in there for them to host in.

which brings up another point. one specimen is in the temporary refugium (with a fat belly full of mysis) and the other is in my display tank. They are both doing great so far, the one in the display started hosting in my rose anemone inside twenty minutes, I think the only thing that slowed him down was that it was purging when he went in.

I will try and post some pics...

[Ram_Puppy]

This one is in the main display tank, hosting in the RBTA, approx 7 hours after introduction to the tank.

http://www.digitalflytrap.com/pictures/tanks/30_hex/Display.JPG

[witecap4u]

Where did you get the fish from? Were they in the same tank when you got them?
If they have both been in seperate tanks for a considerable amount of time(3months+), chances are they have both switched sex to female, and if this is the case, they will never get along. If they are both females, they will probably fight till either one or both die, or you remove one.

Do some reading on Reefcentral in the clownfish and anemone forum, there is a good article about clowns that should be stickied to the top. I paired my clowns up as mentioned in the article and didnt have any problem, and they actually paried up alot fast than the article suggests.

cs


cs

[Ram_Puppy]

I doubt they have been seperated for that long. i got them from CB pets and they were in seperate tanks, I don't know how long the process takes from collection to shop door, but I expect it is shorter than 3 months or so. As I understand it (allready read the article on reef central) clowns go from gender neutral to male to femal, and never backwards. each fish is a little over an inch in length, but i understand they can go their entire life without switching genders.

They were purchased from CB pets (and I knew what i was getting into when I got them. CB pets made sure I did as well). I guess is't very important to get them in the same tank asap. I will finish the divider tomorrow and get them in that tank pronto to see what happens...

[GaryP]

Check with Larry, Instar. He is our resident gold stripe expert. Drop him a PM. He is not every day because of his weird work schedule. If they are both large it could be they are both females.

He is a gold stripe breeder.

Gary

[Ram_Puppy]

your joking... I had no idea he actually bread them or I would have bought from him. :|

My wife has become very attatched to both fish, I was thinking if it didn't work out I would sell one of them, I have now been told, in the new house, at least one of the clowns will have to go into a new tank in the bedroom for her to watch, and she will be purchasing the anemone for it on her own. :) Isn't it great when your spouse tells you to go forth and multiply your collection? :)

I think from what I have read, these two are still males, or at best unsexed, though I doubt unsexed at this size. from what i understand when they turn female, maroon clowns take on a very dark deep coloration. these are still very vibrant, more orange than maroon. I am now wondering if perhaps I should just let each of them become female and then when they are a little larger, get some tiny ones from larry and try and acclimate them to the female. for now I think I will go ahead and put them in the divided tank and see what happens.

[Instar]

Well, to start with, if they are the same size, sell one now and don't waste your time or the life of the fish.
Next. in regard to age, the stripes are very gold, so that means definitely well over a year and a half old but,
the color is too bright to be very old. With colors that bright on GSM's, they've no doubt been fed something
to make it that bright. It will not stay that way as their normal color is very dark maroon with a bright maroon
outline. If they don't change to dark maroon, then they are a different species. So, best guess with them being a little over an inch long, is they are males, quite possibly mature males
or close to it. That means a fight, probably to the death and possibly of both of them if they are the same size.
To pair them and get one to go female if they will settle down will take a tank with two environments, one at each
end for each of them. And it can take over a year to accomplish. But, unless they have different body weights and/or accept each other with the plexi-glass in between, don't even risk it. If you decide to go ahead and try it anyway, the divided tank is a start. Put them together about 45 minutes before lights out when that fateful day comes. If one gets beat up really badly, stop the process. You gotta have nerves of steele to do this because if they fight, it means fins get ripped and bitten, sometimes nearly off. Its gotta go on so thats why it takes nerves of steele. Some where in there you just have to know when enough is enough or one will die. Some pair, if you have a mature male looking for a mate, and an immature female, the male will quell the fight so it won't happen at all. If you have a mature female, or close to it, then she will be fairly eager to accept a mate, although there will be some bashing. If you have an immature female, just switching from male and she even bites you, you're prospective mate has got lots to worry about. Sounds like you have two that are the same size to me, or nearly so and I recommend highly that you sell one. Its not the same as getting them from a tank that has 30 or 40 babies in it and tank bred and raised.

[Ram_Puppy]

Thanks for the imput larry, I will go ahead and test the water with the plexi-glass barrier and see what happens. If they don't pair up, it's to late to sell, my wife already formed an attatchment to both, so they will go in seperate tanks and I will eventually try for a pair later with a smaller fish.

BTW, I am not sure that they have been fed color enhancer, Richard from CB Pets says that the Gold Stripes that come from Sumatra are always very well colored, and I have seen pics of them on reef central that show they hold the magnificent coloring throughout their life (it does change, but stays vivid.) believe it or not, those colors don't do it justice in the photo.

Do you think if I feed one fish more heavily I will be able to achieve a growth differential that will assist the process?