MAAST live Sand Swap, Live Sand Bank?

[Ram_Puppy]

Hey guys, I had an idea, it may have been done before of course...

To be fully implemented this I think would need to have some maast sponsorship. And a one or more capable volunteers willing to give up some space in their home, or even business.

The idea being:

At the next MAAST meeting (or any meeting there after that the volunteer is at) membes bring in a cup of live sand, and take home a cup of sterile southdown (or equivalent) to fill in any holes in their sandbed (if they want to.)

All sand donated goes into either a tank or rubbermaid tub (you get the idea) allready filled with SW and southdown (or the like). no one leaves with live sand that meeting.

Then we allow the live sand to seed the southdown, the volunteer will feed the tank, do what is neccessary to promote the health of the sand bed, so on so forth.

Then, in the future, we plan to have a MAAST meeting at the volunteers home, and those that contributed to the sandbed, get a cup of sand back no charge, those who didn't, pay a sum to defer the cost of the operation. After you have your original cup back, all future 'withdrawls' from the MAAST live Sand Bank would cost a nominal sum (to replace live sand, pay for electricity, feeding, maintenance, so on.) perhaps discount that cost to anyone bringing in live sand, or just steril sand to keep the bank going.

We could even do things as a group to encourage the health of this sand, such as, when a member goes diving and collects some live sand, brings it in, donates it, we have more bio-diveristy. Ordering Garf Grunge and Grunge Plus.

I am having a friend come in from pheonix in a month or so (hopefully) since it IPSF will not ship Sea Bunnies to texas, and will to Pheonix, I have allready arranged for him to bring some in, I would of course be willing to loand them to the sand bank for a while to let their spawn get in there (from what I read, this could take all of five minutes) I will probably get some of their nerites and other snails as well, all of which are supposed to breed in the tank.

If everyone did this, we could really build up a great stock of bio-diversity, those wanting pods and mini-stars, beneficial snails to start up a new tank could come to the club for it. If the idea is hot enough, could have one in each of the major cities, Austin, San Antonio, and Houston. And have periodic 'trades' between the banks.

I would be willing to host this in the future, but for now, I don't have the capacity, I live in an apartment. But I am getting a house in december, and i could use the 110 tall I bought from someone in austin (Sorry I forgot who! :( but thanks! ) It has some scratches I was unable to get out so I decided not to use it as a show tank.

What do you guys think?

oh, of course there would need to be some serious gut checking on anyone contributing, no red planaria, those that have suffere mite infestations would I guess be OK, but we would need to be very leary of tanks with known issues so as not to crash the entire community.

Oh, and I had mentioned a business, Perhaps a maast sponsor would want to get in on this, they could sell sand out of the tank as long as they took precautions not to bankrupt it?

[Ross]

Sounds pretty cool to me. I will definetly donate some ls.

[matt]

I suggested this sort of thing a while back. I think it's a great idea, but it's ALOT of work; whoever does it would have to be pretty dedicated. You'd want really good circulation, maybe a skimmer, and lots of effort at building and maintaining biodiversity. A good idea would be an initial investment in a big ipsf and/or inland aquatics order for worms etc. to get it started, plus sand from a variety of tanks. Keeping flatworms out would be a major challenge if you got sand from multiple sources. A few trips to corpus for some ocean sand might be a good idea as well.

I posted something about this several months ago on Shimek's author forum on reefcentral. He was kind of into the idea, but stressed the amount of upkeep the bio-diversity would require to be really quality live sand. Finding the right person to take care of this would involve some money, I think. Just enough to cover the considerable coast of setting up the system and running it. Then you'd also have to deal with the DSB naysayers like Josh! :-D

[Ram_Puppy]

well, like I said, If you guys are willing to help, I am willing to do it. naysayers aside, I think the DSB is one of the most important additons to the reef hobby, if properly maintained.

as far as setup is concerned, This is what I figured:

I am sure someone around here has a skimmer they no longer need or want, or perhaps we could Have Matt make one with proper compensation from the club (perhaps discounted?)
I'll donate the tank, what i have is probably not the ideal configuration, but it will work, and have a high water volume to sand ratio since it is a 'tall' tank. we can even drill it to make things easy if need by, but that probably doesn't need to happen.

LIghting Can be accomplished with a few cheapo -fuge- lights everyone is gettnig from home depot, cheap to buy, cheap to run.

So then were looking for a pump, again, I am sure someone will outgrow one, or power heads, If I remember right, doesn't tim go through powerheads like crazy, replacing them every year or two even if it's not needed? I have a Rio 1100 I currently use for water changes that I could throw in there. but that won't be enough I think. I would prefer as little constant overhead as possible (electircity) so the fewer pumps and powerheads, the better, so maybe put a SCWD on the return from the skimmer, I have one of those too, once the 115 is up, I won't need it as I am getting an oceans motions for it.

That leaves sand, I think we may have found a local inexpensive source of arragonite in the product from lockhill feed, it still bears practical testing (which I and I think others intend to do) but if it works out, 5.50 for 50lbs of a southdown like product gets us started cheap.

All it would take is a section of someones garage, or in their fish room.

I suspect if we could get a constant flow of deposits and withdrawls from members, we could keep the population healthy and diverse, simply by not giving any one organism time to establish dominance. We could provide a nice pod habitat and up the ante and include varius beneficial algae cultures in the tank as well.

While some of the 'rare' goodies like sea bunnies might need to be ordered, I don't think worms would need to be, as long as we provide enough time for the initial culture to thrive and multiply.

after initial setup, I think there would be very little needed to keep it going other than general tank maintenance. It probably wouldn't even require as many water changes and so forth as a typical tank.

Beneficial organisms I can think of that people may introduce into their tank given time and that they are deposited at some point:

Detrivour and algae eating snails
(Cerith, Nerite, Strombus, nassarius)
Other Beneficial snails
(Sea Bunnies)
Ministars
Spaghettie Worms
Copepods
Amphipods
Mysid Shrimp
Bristle Worms (great and small)
beneficial flat worms (the little pacman ghosts you see on your glass)
Untold types of aerobic Micro Fauna and Flora (possilby Anerobic as well (I can see this being done if live rock rubble is put deep in the sand maybe?)

Macro Algae Cultures

Also, mentioned on GARF, in their grunge tanks they have coraline species from all over the world, including branching coralines, perhaps with the addition of some liverock, well seeded with desirable forms of coralines, and maybe an urchin to feed on them, (thus spreading it) we could even get coraline spores into the mix, that though, I am highly speculative on... that may be just going to far.

Again, If I am the one to host it, it would have to wait until January to start as I will be moving late december.

[Ram_Puppy]

another thought,

we could elp attract new hobbyists with this, and the cooperation of local fish stores, put some MAAST cards out on their counters, and have the LFS guys tell them to get their live sand from us, most stores don't cater in live sand, and exposing a newb to us does nothing but increasing that newbs chances of success, and thus, increasing the LFS opportunity to make money off the newb. (probably not in coral frags though! ;)

[matt]

It's a great idea, an ambitious project. It would be GREAT to have a local source of high quality live sand; actually more like the inland aquatics "invert sand" than just typical live sand. Go for it!

You know, Felipe at Fin Addict (the new store in town) is setting up something sort of like this in a big tub in the back of his store. You might go talk to him about it.

[Ram_Puppy]

I am sure if Felipe is setting something up, anything we do could be synergistic with his approach. Or, perhaps Maast could help him out, make him our sandbank in exchange for a discount on what we take back out or something... it is definately worth consideration, we all set up new tanks all the time, it's a constant cycle and a resource like this benefits us all.

[NaCl_H2O]

Since I have a new 800g system under construction, I think this is a GREAT idea, and I could be the first "customer" :-D :-D

I have a Rio 2100 I can donate to the cause, and a Rio 3100 (I think) I could donate after I tear down my old system - but that's months from now. Also after tear down, I have a Berlin Turbo skimmer I could donate, but again that may be too late.

PM me if you seriously plan to start this, I can easily donate the 2100 whenerver you want it!

[Ram_Puppy]

Well, unless any other volunteers step forward, I guess I will start it in January 2005. Of course, I think since we are talking about this being MAAST sponsored, and I can't foot the bill alone, we would need official sign off. I will be joining maast officially (paying my dues!) next meeting, maybe we can bring it up then? since I haven't been able to make one before now, I am not entirely sure how it works.

[brianK]

Hello All,

I'm a newbie at this, but in the process of cleaning out one of my rooms in the house to use as a fish room. I'll have some free time in less than two weeks (23rd) and will be spending most of the week cleaning out the room for future fish adventures. Since I'm new at this, still learning the ropes, but can offer a room in South Austin to hold any equirpment that may get setup for this cause.

I'm pretty quick at picking up things, so can keep a regular maintenance routine going to, and am single so don't have anyone who would object <haha>

So if you need a place in Austin, or at least South Austin, I'm leaving the option open and up for discussion.

P.S. could use the some of the live sand to seed the new tank I setting up also <evil grin>

Brian

[adaminaustin]

I think this is a great idea...

I love the thought of a very diverse sand bank. The easy access to members would also be nice. I have ordered garf grung before and really like the stuff, it is a bit high priced and the shipping is a PITA though. I would even have no problem donating a cup out of my tank to help someone set up the bank.

My only issue is "MAAST Sponsorship"
From one side it looks like a win win situation. Everybody has great access to mega diversity. No more having to order on-line for a sandbed "recharge." But the first time someone gets a parasite it is bad for the club. Anything can be in that sand: Flatworms, red acro mites, predatory coral starfish. Something bad could happen to someone’s tank and they could blame the "MAAST SAND BANK"
What would happen when someone starts a post that Maast owes them $75? Somehow their favorite acro colony died after a bad flatworm episode. I am not saying this will happen, but it could.
I would not hesitate with this idea if this is how you want to help supplement your side of the hobby. We need a resident "Sand Man" or women for that matter. I think many people would take advantage and donate a cup or two. I just think it would be a bad idea for maast. It is started to involve people in the club. But in the end it might make people mad at the club for introducing something into their system.

This is just the thoughts of a single person (me).
I am in no way voicing the thoughts of the board.
If you decide to do it, talk to Tim. I know he had a sand bank going for awhile.

[adaminaustin]

P.S.
Please don't let my post discoruge ideas or actions in any way. I really think it is the stuff like this that makes MAAST so rewarding to its members. :D

[RobertG]

Tim had a great sandbed going. I was able to get about 50 lbs of it. The stuff is loaded with life. It worked out great for me when I set my 240 up. I am willing to donate some sand from my loaded refugium. If this does not workout soon anyone want to trade a cup or two? :-D

[BA]

hey robert f we ever get ot meet again, if u could spare a cup or two, id be happy to trade w/ u...ya i think its agood idea, but like adam said, only one mistake and there goes the whole thing..

[GaryP]

What if any incoming sand was treated with flatworm exit? You may lose a littl diversity by doing that, but in the long run it may be helpful. I got glatworms from an LFS in New Orleans when I bought LS from them. As it turns out, they used their sand bed tanks to hold critters for customers that were in the process of moving or renovating their tanks. Its no surprise that they contained flatworms. After the initial sand bed is established, no further donations should be required and therefore no further treatment would be necessary.

Here's a question? How would such a sand bed be fed? Our reef sand beds are fed through the "left overs" of food and waste produced from the biological activity in the tanks.

One more thing. If its a deep sand bed, anaerobic bacteria should develop. By deep, I mean greater than 4". That seems to be the critical depth necessary to get the Redox potential level low enough for anaerobes in a sugar fine sand bed. Of course it is deeper the more coarse the sand is.

Gary

[Ram_Puppy]

good imput guys.

Adam First, Adam, Gary has a good point that we could treat incoming sand with flatworm exit, which I am weary of, (there are good liitle flatworms in most live sand) I would say, why not just set up a quarantine of the sand and treat it like a fish out of open water? if took, say, a 20 gallon tank, and each sand donation went into that tank for a month (each donation could be held in a clear dixie cup) we would probably see if there was any negative life in there. we could stock that tanks perhaps, with a known flatworm predator, (if there is one, and it would need to be confirmed I think) and on top of all that, we could even put a sacrificial SPS frag in there, an easy one that would make it shoved right up under a powercompact (is there such a creature?) as, say, sort of the Canary in the mine, inspection of the coral should show acro mites if a donation is infested. In this manner, we aren't dosing the entire sand bank, but only what is quarantined.



As for Keeping it fed, I have been trying to find a use for the assinine purchase of Flake food I made at the beginning of this hobby! :) I think the amount of feeding would need to be based on how 'alive' the sand bed is. I am definately for getting the bed 'deep', I don't know how we would maintain coarser grains on the bottom, unless that just happens through settling... but, population, and skimming would have a big impact on what we could do. I was thinking we could put some beneficial macro algaes in the tank as well, I would be willing to put some of my Botryocladia sp in there for propogation, add some chaeto, and a few other nice forms (no caulerpa please! :) ) and it could be pretty nice.

As for being careful and not getting people upset at MAAST in general, I think this can be done. Look at it this way, I particiapted in a sandswap months ago on reef central in which people from all over the country, over a hundred, gave sand. Those that had recently had problems in their tank were asked to not send sand, and they didn't. I think we can bank on our members to be as responsible, and whoever ends up banker, should have responsible practices set up to prevent a problem from getting in, and if that fails, from getting out back into the clubs tanks.

I think continual donations will be beneficial to the bank, if all anyone makes is withdrawls, then, eventually the bank will have a few life forms outcompete others in such a small space (I think the diversity can probably be maintained much better in a reef tank, with all that it has in it.) So a constant in out I think will be good. As long as proper quarantine procedures are handled on our end. I also don't see this as something people are going to be withdrawing from every day, I think perhaps, once or twice a month, + meetings days could be setup to get it, otherwise it might be nuisance on the banker (imagine trying to have dinner with the wife and someone knocks on the door wanting sand? :) ) and then consider, that, at max you have 3 days a month that sand is withdrawn or deposited, and that the banker will have exposure to that tank almost every day, enough to see a problem if it crops up before the withdrawl day.

In addition, we could keep a log book on donations and withdrawls, and track what life is witnessed in our tanks, and in the bank. I think MAAST can do this as a club, and I think overall it would be a good thing for the club. And the bottom line as far as MAAST members are concerned (from recent topics) is the Hobbyist is responsible for what they put in the tank, not the supplier. If need be we can print up a disclaimer card though, saying "to the best of our knowledge, this live sand culture is free of parasites(acro mites), pests (Aptasia, Mejano), yadah yadah yadah, MAAST hopes this contribution to your new tank will assist in yaddah yaddah yaddah, however, despite our best efforts to keep our cultures clean, you may encounter parasites, pests, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah. MAAST is not responsible for this, so on, so forth...

THis dialouge is very good, it helps us identify potential risks and rewards, and I think that we can setup a system of procedures to minimize the risk.

Brian, if we do this, I think it is a good idea to have 3 major banks, Austin, San Antonio, Houston with periodic swaps between each bank. So if you are willing to run a bank in Austin, and I have san Antonio, someone else can get houston... or perhaps we start small, see how the idea works out?

I am hoping to have a new job in a couple of weeks, working 3 12 hour shifts a week at night, if that happens, I will have quite a few days open to move around south texas and so on, and I get to Austin about once a month these days, so it's not inconcievable we can do with only one sandbank at this point, for cost of startup anyhow.

[brianK]

Hello Ram,

I've got a hosting account already I was thinking of setting up a message board on. Could try running this PNPphpBB2 message board software to setup an online area to discuss/trade sand. Something like CTLSB - Central Texas Live Sand Bank ....just thinking off the top of my head....I'll play around with setting up the software and see what I get and get back with yall...

Brian

[GaryP]

You can't keep coarse and fine sand seperated without stirring it. The coarse will always come to the top. Stirring it defeats the purpose of a deep sand bed because the anaerobic bacteria from the bottom won't survive, or at least be metabolically active, in the top layers.

Gary

[Ram_Puppy]

well, I don't really see this issue as being any different than in a regular reef tank with a dsb. Only problem being, were going to have our hands in this sand bed more often.

I think a worthy addition may be to put a section of sand in the middle of the tank, say a foot and a half accross, that is never disturbed, perhaps acrylic w/ holes drilled in it would be good.

[jim1000]

I would be more than happy to make a skimmer, I have all the material except a pump, just need to know the size of the tank we are talking about, should be at least 100-150 gal. not so-much tall as wide. Let me know time frame as need a few days for manufacture. Will talk to you, I hope at Aug. meet.
Jim

[adaminaustin]

Ram Puppy,
it looks like you have great ideas that I never even thought about. This could work out well if a quarantine was used correctly. At one single meeting you could get sand from tons of sources.

I know many wrasses make great flatworm predators. The downside to that is wrasses eat some of the good stuff too. As far as the canary in a mine field sps coral, Stylophoria and Pocilloporia are usually the first types affected by predatory starfish. I have no clue about the red mites favorite coral or what type it usually affects first. Hopefully someone will chime in with that answer.

[Ram_Puppy]

Hey Jim, That is a very generous offer, thank you!

no rush, I won't be in the new house until December, so start up in januray, the tank I am starting with is a 115 tall, not ideal, but it's laying around which makes it a free startup as far as the tank goes. Do you guys think perhaps a rubbermaid tub would be a better option?

[Ram_Puppy]

I think Those infected said it hit their acro's first, not sure... I only have one tri color acro and one purple millapora (acro has turned mostly brown but is still growing, while millapora is rock solid gorgeous, go figure) anyhow... I love the idea of a canary in the mine, but worried about adding a frag to the tank simply for the lighting issue (if indeed the mite canary ends up needing lots of light.) that will drive up startup and running expenses. :|

I am betting predatory starfish won't be a huge deal, and if they show up, I understand you can train harlequin shrimp to eat them, I believe I read this in Anthony calfo's new book, or maybe it was on here, can't remember... but they can definatley be trained to munch on them, so if they show up, perhaps I could remove the starfish to another tank, buy a harlequin to clean out the quarantine tank, and then culture the starfish much like instar cultures aptasia, or perhaps even offload the stars and the harlequin to someone interested in keeping them...

There are definately ways to keep our sand free of nasties.

What types of stuff do you guys have in your tanks right now? My pod population is obliterated, (**** pj cardinals)

but I know for usre I have a heavy mini-star population, both the white ones, and the black and white zebra ones. I think I may have some spaghetti womrs as well, not sure.

[GaryP]

Blue velvet nuibranchs only eat flatworms. They are hard to ship and are somewhat delicate. They also only live about 6 months. I put 2 in one of my tanks a couple of months ago. I don't know if they are still alive, but the flatworm population is way down.

I have a yellow coris wrasse in my other tank. I definitely know he eats them because I can see him picking them off the sand. He's just about got them wiped out in that tank. I had treated that tank with Flatworm Exit before putting the coris wrasse in.

Gary

[Ram_Puppy]

From what I hear, flatworm exit is a good product if you follow the instructions... if we do a 20 gallon quarantine and keep up with it, there shouldn't be a need to buy a nudi. Quarantineing new sand after the initial setup will be the key, I don't see how we can quarantine sand the first time around, just to much of it.

Again, it really all comes down to the hobbyists responsibility, each hobbyist would need to use their best judgement as far as the condition of their tanks, if they have had any problems with flat worms in the recent past, along with aptasia, mejano, mites, and so on, they simply shouldn't donate, since this does NOT keep them from making a withdrawl, there is no reason for them to risk it.

[brianK]

Have setup a message board for discussing the Live Sand Bank visit:

http://www.linuxhorizons.net/vb_ctlsb/

Have some other message forums setup also....help me by giving suggestions on other forum areas.
Thanks
Brian

[Ram_Puppy]

Brian, I appreciaet your efforts on this, but as of yet we haven't even decided to do it, and I would still like to do it in association with or as part of MAAST. I think at this point, the next step is discussing this project at a MAAST meeting and determining the best course of action as a group.

(Very nice board though.)