Foxface dying!

[cvonseggern]

Deb and I have had a 4" foxface in the 100g display for about a month now. He seemed fine until this morning...we found him stuck against the teeth on the internal overflow box. Obviously, this isn't a really huge current, so I assume he's very weak if he was stuck there. I gently pushed him off the box with an algae scraper and he drifted with the current, not swimming, until he found his way to the bottom of the tank at one side. He's sitting down there now, breathing heavily and looking very dark in color. He's sporadically nibbling on the hair algae on the rocks next to him, but hasn't bothered to move at all even for the strip of nori 2" from his head. His caudal fin has a couple 1/8" chunks out of the back edge. The only thing in the tank I can think of that could do that is the hermit crabs.

I think he's dying. He's gotten stuck a couple other times in the last two weeks - once pinned against a rock by the return output, once stuck to the "cage" on a powerhead intake. I am wondering if he sustained some kind of internal injuries during one of those events. He looked fine after both of those (we turned the offending device off to let him swim free) but he sure looks awful this morning. Anybody have any ideas other than letting him sit and see if he revives?

Almost forgot - parameters are near perfect. Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrates about 5, pH stable at 7.8, temp rock-solid at 80, SG also stable for the last few weeks at 1.024.

[pilot_bell777]

Mine did the exact same thing in great water conditions as well. He was eating like a champ and then one day he was doing that, turned gray almost and I put him the hospital tank, came home after that and he died. Never knew why though.....just one day fine the next started acting funny and two or three days later he was gone.

Hope you have better luck than I did.

[cvonseggern]

Nope...he just died, literally right before my eyes. He had swum out of the cave, and he actually expired as I watched. I'm really freaking frustrated right now...seems like everything I put in that tank lately dies despite having near-optimal water parameters. I'm *this* close to just tearing down the whole thing. It's a big cyano- and hair-infested nightmare anyway.

[pilot_bell777]

How much OXY exchange you have going on????? I did the exact same thing and come to find out it was my Oxy exchange. I added two power heads and no my fish are doing great. My fish were basically slowly sufficating to death.

[cvonseggern]

I doubt gas exchange is the problem - the top's open except for some eggcrate, the sump is totally open, and there's a great deal of gas exchange in the sump due to the overflow crashing down into it, and the skimmer as well. The two cardinals in there are just fat & happy and not showing any signs of distress. It's really starting to look like it had to be something that happened specifically to the foxface.

[alexwolf]

how long has the tank been running?

[brackish]

sorry to hear about your loss. could it of been the fishes diet? according to scott michaels book, (marine fishes). the foxface rabbitfish eats mostly vegetable matter. feed dried and frozen herbivore foods that contain marine algae and the bluegreen alga spirulina.

i have lost fish too and felt frustrated. if it gets real bad i would back off and give myself and the tank a break. don't add any more fish untill you feel better. hang in there!

george

[pilot_bell777]

Sorry....I did not have a sump at the time and was relying on my hang on skimmer and bio wheels to generate Oxy.....

Sorry for your loss.

[MikeP]

Rabbitfish in general are extremely hardy and often survive full tank wipeouts. My guess is it may be a lingering issue related to collection damage or possible cyanide exposure. Sorry to hear of your loss but these are among the hardiest of fish you can get generally.

[pilot_bell777]

Where did you buy him from????

[JimD]

I think MikeP nailed it,,,... Rabbits are usually bullet proof, the fish most likely had lingering issues from the get go,.
Sorry for your loss, theyre beautifull fish...

[cvonseggern]

I hope that's all it was...the fish came from Alamo and I was in there this evening...noticed that the two they currently have both look pretty awful for fish that have been in the shop for more than a month. Maybe the source they're using isn't the greatest or something.

I've been feeding homemade food from Robert Fenner's recipe (includes dried nori), mysis shrimp (mostly for the Banggais but the foxface liked it too) and occasional strips of nori in a clip. His color was good and his behavior was nothing out of the ordinary right up until this morning, so I'm thinking malnutrition probably wasn't the leading factor. I do want to get another one soon but I think I'll wait until I can find a specimen in good health from a known good source.

[pilot_bell777]

I have one LFS here in Austin that EVERYTHING that I have baught from them has died....I really like the guys that own it and I buy corals, inverts, and dry goods there but I won't buy anymore fish there. If you look at their tanks most of the fish are ate up with something or another. I used to buy on impulse but MikeP has taught me that I should look at the fish multiple times across several weeks. I started doing this and now I am doing good with fish selections!

Thanks MikeP!!!!!

[dow]

. . . I've been feeding homemade food from Robert Fenner's recipe (includes dried nori), mysis shrimp (mostly for the Banggais but the foxface liked it too) and occasional strips of nori in a clip.

Good recipe. I've made it myself.


. . . I do want to get another one soon but I think I'll wait until I can find a specimen in good health from a known good source.

Check with Aquatic Warehouse. I've seen several there over the time they've been open. Sorry about your loss.

[Tim Marvin]

Yes, pilot, it is best not to buy fish from the pet connection.

[Richard]

There countless reasons as to why you might have lost the foxface but I would recommend you check your phosphate level. I had a customer who kept losing every tang he put in his tank to eat the hair algae. Turned out his phosphates were at 3+ mg/l. The parameters you gave are fine but you also say "It's a big cyano- and hair-infested nightmare anyway." so something isn't right. The are dozens if not more substances that contribute to "water quality". I like to use test kits but no matter what they say you should not never disregard what your eyes are telling you. Excessive algae/cyano problems in an established tank are always sure signs of poor "water quality". Hard part sometimes is figuring out what is the problem.

Although I will say that I have a customer who had lots of problems with algae, losing animals etc. Against my advice she tore it down, tossed the sand and liverock and started over. She hasn't had a problem since, shows how much I know.

[Tim Marvin]

She could have had a problem, and by throwing it all out and starting over she removed the phosphate problem.......Sure is an expensive fix though!

[GaryP]

Tim,

I agree, especially if she never found out the source of the problem. It could be that she was just going to recreate the problem if she didn't find its source.

Gary

[pilot_bell777]

Yes, pilot, it is best not to buy fish from the pet connection.

Acutally....I hate to say it but everything that I have baught from Pet Connection has been very healthy and is still alive and doing great. It wasn't Pet Connection that I was referring to. I deal ONLY with Sam there. He has some twisted views but I know enough (I think) to get threw all the crap. I am way more selective now than I was in the begining, maybe that helps. I actually just moved a Flame Angel and a Purple Tang that I baught from there and have been in QT for a good while to the main tank last night and I couldn't be happier with either fish. Maybe you just have to build up a repoor with Sam (Stay away from Larry, knows NOTHING about the hobby) to get the good stuff, heheheh..I don't buy everything there but I have baught some fish and a hairy mushroom rock from there.

I don't want to say who I am talking about because I really like the guys that work there and the owners as well and I still do a lot of business there, just not fish and I know everyone here is a big fan of their store (as am I) and I don't want to sound like I am bashing them in any way......because I am not.

[cvonseggern]

Phosphate is one thing I'm not testing for...everything I read seems to indicate that there is no such thing as a reliable consumer-grade phosphate test kit, so I have considered it not to be worth the money.

The hair algae has actually been on the decline (slowly) lately since I augmented the cleanup crew. I only had about 25 turbos and a few hermits before. Since adding another dozen turbos and a dozen ceriths the algae has been slowly disappearing, but it takes a while. The cyano has indeed gotten bad, however. I believe overfeeding is a large part of the problem and am cutting back on how much food goes into the tank. I'm also keeping the lights off for about 3 days to see if I can make some inroads on the cyano. If that doesn't help I might have to bite the bullet and gamble on a phosphate kit, and then maybe some rowaphos if the levels are high.

[cvonseggern]

I should add that my words about a "nightmare" were hasty ones that had more to do with my frustration at that moment than the conditions in our tank. It's not really that bad...the cyano had gotten pretty ugly but the algae growth appears to be at least under control.

[Richard]

If you get a phosphate kit, I would recommend the Seachem one. It is inaccurate in the sense that it is very difficult to tell the difference between say .4 and .8 . The color scale goes from yellow (0 mg/l) to green (3.0 mg/l) so the way I look at it is if the reagents appear yellow in good lighting then phosphate is at a desirable level. If I see a hint of green then phosphate is a little high. If it is obviously green then phosphate is much too high.

I would avoid the ones from Hagan and Fastest/Seatest as the lowest reading is .2 mg/L which is still way above what you want it at. Don't know about Salifert or any other brands but just make sure it will read down to zero mg/l.

I understand your frustration, my language is usually a little more colorful than "nightmare" when I'm having problems with a tank.