Deep Sea Bed

[susannew]

Back for help and advice again:)) I know everyone may have a different opinion on this one but I need to find out the pros and cons of each so that I can determine which method of sand bed would be best for my tank... Recently purchased a 120 gallon tank and have decided to start putting the live sand/rock in when I discovered this was yet again something I am unsure of how to do... :( I hear there are several methods of doing deep sea beds but not sure which one will be the best?
Method one-plenum system or berlin system(is this the correct name? explained to be the best way at a lfs)
In this one I am told you have to get an egg crate and put it on top of 1 inch pvc piping and put window screen on top of that and then fill up with live sand about 5 inches or so.. Then you stack the live rock on top of the sand.
From what I think I understand is the egg crate prevents build up of hydrogen sulfide and prevents it from crashing after a year?
Method two-Deep Sea Bed by Dr Ron on reef central
4 plus inches of sand then stack rock on top of that... supposed to buy recharge kit (little critters for the sand) a couple times a year to keep the system going. stated nitrification will occur in the sand (bubbles) and that at the bottom there will be hydrogen sulfide buildup and that is ok and normal and that it will not go into the main tank above and cause problems like some people think. Also stated would not be able to have sand sifter stars or gobies as they would eat the good stuff in the sand.
Method three (not sure if this one has a name)
Put down base rock at the bottom and then sand on top of that and then the rock on top of that..

Being a beginner who has never had a saltwater aquarium this is quite confusing cause I'm not sure what to do now, lol.... Just know that I do like the sand bed method. Any oppinions/advice would be greatly appriciated and thank you in advance!!!!!

[::pete::]

You will get many opinions on this topic especially now that people are going to bare bottom and starboard.

I would stay away from the plenum. I too like sand on the bottom for a natural look, but it has been said that only the top @2" are live. So going more than 3" would seem like a waste. As for replenishing the critters purchasing is one way and you could also get a cup or so of sand from a local reefer and add it or get it from your fuge if you will be running one. The stars will eat the critters and there are other choices to stir the sand up.

Just my opinion and hope that helps.

[mharris7]

I found from my experience that deep sand beds promote high phosphates. They process nitrates ok, but phosphates really don't have anywhere to go. They drove a horrible hair algae problem in my tank for years. It went away the MOMENT I removed my deep sand bed. My recommendation would be a large refugium. The growing macros provide the same benefits as a deep sand bed - they remove nitrates AND phosphates, and promote tons of fauna (pods, worms, ect....) that feed the main tank as plankton.

The only negative is that some macro algaes will yellow the water. I eliminate this by running carbon full time in a cannister filter. I run carbon mainly to intercept any bad chemicals corals produce when competing against each other (which happens all the time in our tanks), but a side benefit is that it eliminates any yellowing of the water from the macro algaes in my refugium.

I have a 75gallon tank and a 55 gallon refugium. My nitrates and phosphates are undetectable, which is better performance than my deep sand bed ever delivered. You could probably put down a thin layer of sand if you didn't want an absolutely bare bottom tank.....

-Mike

[susannew]

I have all the sand I bought in a 75 gallon tank cycling with the live rock we purchased and its about 4 inches at the bottom... Going to xfr it over to my 120 so it will probably be less than 3 inches spread out.. Will this be ok? Then just put the rock on top? Thank you for all the help guys:)

[::pete::]

Either way, as I said there will be many opinions and the last one will be yours. :)

I have about 3-3+" now in a 100 and when I move the tank I will go less in the tank when I set it back up. If you are going to have a refugium you can use some in there also.

[NaCl_H2O]

I have a 120g with a 3" DSB and live rock directly on top - over time your rock will settle through the sand, so go ahead and wiggle the rock down to the bottom of the tank to avoid later settling that could mess up your aquascaping. Also, a sand sifting star will really help keep the DSB in good shape. I don't recommend a sand sifting gobie, as they do a bit "too much" sand sifting. I have never had any nitrite, nitrate, or posphate problems - all at near zero for over a year.

The only real problem I ever had was TDS (Total Dissolved Solids), and that was corrected by buying an RO/DI unit and not using good old San Antonio aquifer water (Great to drinking, not for reefs!).

The refugium is an excelent idea if you have room. I don't currently have one, but plan to add one in my new setup.

Good luck, and don't get discouraged - the first three months on a new tank can be a little frustrating as it cycles through normal algae blooms.

- Steve

[susannew]

Thats what I am going to do when I get home today:) Think my fiance will be happy with it also.. Will have a skimmer on it and canister filter on the back until he gets time to get the plumbing altogether, lol... We are wanting to build a refugium/sump and he has come up with a basic design, just a matter of getting the time to put it together. Have a 29 gallon we were going to use for the sump but the protein skimmer footprint and pump we bought from JM when he pulled apart his tank are to big for it we think.. Thank you again:) As far as algea blooms, think thats going to be fun too, lol... going through the cyano phase now;)

[matt]

Did you buy Jim Norris's skimmer? If so, send me a PM. I can probably help you make sure it's working correctly. As far as the deep sand bed goes, I've always had one and I'm a real believer in them. But, you MUST make sure there are sufficient animals in them to keep the sand moving and process waste as it accumulates in the sand. This is done by stocking the sand bed with live sand, "wonder mud" from IPSF, any number of sources for sand which contains lots of animals. Then, you also must avoid adding animals that predate on the sand animals. These are gobies and large sifting stars; the stars especially can really destroy a sand bed quickly. They sift the sand to find and eat the animals that make a sand bed work. Smaller brittle stars (AKA serpent stars) are fine as they primarily eat detritus. Some other fish can be problematic; I strongly suspect my copperband butterfly contributed to the ill functioning of my sand bed in the last several months by eating all the featherdusters and making a pretty big dent in the small crustacean/bristleworm population. Another critical thing I've learned the hard way is to make sure there is sufficient flow around your live rock so that the sand surface is not sitting in stagnant water; this can be a little challenging depending on how you stack your rock.

The idea is that the sand bed, when functioning properly, provides pathways for food/energy transfer all the way to free notrogen bubbling out of the system. all waste products get eaten by animals progessively down the food chain. It is correct that phosphate removal is best done by growing and discarding macro algae; but this is true regardless of whether or not you have a sand bed. Another way of removing phosphates is to drip kalkwasser into the input of a strong skimmer; the calcium hydroxide somehow binds phosphate, removing it from solution in the water and transfering it to skimmer sludge/skimmate.

Shimek claims that 4" is a minimum depth for deep sand beds to maintain enough bio diversity to function well, but I've heard of people having 3" sand beds that stay pretty full of life as well.

Good luck, and welcome to maast!

[StephenA]

Go find this book and read. Dr Ron is an expert (not an opinion).

http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

If it's done right it works, plus it looks natural. When I dive the reef's don't have glass or starboard bottoms!

My 3.5" DSB works great and looks fantastic.

[Instar]

Well, after trying the Garf method of plenums, I have to disagree in part with Pete. But, plenum to me is an open plenum, not made or sealed off with fine sand. All of my future setups will have a plenum, not in the main tank though, but in a large refugium. Main tank, shallow medium fine sand bed.
Susan, you really have to keep your sense of humor, study, pick one and then learn about the drawbacks of it. They all take some kind of thought and attention periodically and any one method can cause a situation in your tank chemistry that needs corrected. Observation, regular testing and maint will be your best friends. Never stop reading. The pros and cons and different opionions on all this will make you crazy. There is more than one way to get a fine looking tank.

I particularly don't like the deep unstirred (one without sand sifters) live sand beds because they all look dirty to me. There are other draw backs, but, thats the main one for me. There is always some crap growing on them or along the glass at the front or somewhere in everyones tank I've seen after its been up for a little while. After a while it looks like crap. A reef bottom sand is stirred by water, tides, storms, fish and sedentary animals all the time. Its always moving and turned over and clean yet still has many micro organisms in it that live in that kind of enviroment. An unstirred DSB would be better in a refugium for me. I don't care if that looks like an algae heap. I have a shallow live sand bed with "aragalive" aragonite and after 4 years the sand is still clean. No sifters. The rest of the tank is a grungy aiptasia farm basically for my nudibranches, but that sand is clean. I would prefer that in my reef more than any other bottom because it reflects the light to the underside of large corals and it just look nice as well as natural to me when compared to my diving or as seen in pictures.

Best of luck to you in your research and reading. The best thing you do, even if its confusing sometimes, is to post a question on here first. There are no silly questions, only mistakes that could have been prevented had one posed a question here first.

Srogers has some very good advice in her post above.

[Bigreefer]

Well said Matt... I totally agree. I like the extra life that a DSB offers. The spaghetti worms that completely cover my whole DSB are just too cool.

I added a refugium with calerpa to help with the phosphates sine I don't use kalk. I don't have an alge problem.

[Ram_Puppy]

I think many people see problems with DSB's and just don't consider the next evolutionary step, adding a fuge to the mix.