should lfs be held responsible?

[reefer]

should a lfs be held accountable for damages done to a hobbist's reeftank if they don't have labels indicating the use of copper or other medications that could foul your water, posted on thier tanks? just curious.... i was at a lfs, and thought to myself, those fish look very healthy.... i don't see any signs or labels indicating the use of meds.... better ask the rep!
and he said "sure do, we use copper in all of our tanks, except in the inverts and coral tanks"
and i said " i have a reef tank, don't you think you should have a label ~somewhere~ warning me of this if i bought one of your fish???"
he just stared blanky at me... the common sense of my statement must have caught him off guard :-o
8)

[BA]

label meds.....

[Instar]

It doesn't matter. No local fish store water belongs in your system and won't get in there providing you acclimate correctly.

[BA]

what if it is a tank w/ live rock..

[Tim Marvin]

BA, they would be out of business if they did something that stupid!

Instar, I agree completely, but some people still do the bag floating method......LOL......

[TexasState]

No, they shouldn't be responsible. Many stores medicated their water to keep the fishes from getting Ick. I sometime dip my fishes into freshwater 1st b4 putting them into the main tank. How's that for acclimating?

[reefer]

my point is...
that if a lfs is using meds in thier display tanks, it should be posted. why? because someone could make a mistake, or lack of better judgement and foul the water in thier tank, and cause thier reefs inhabitants to die accidently. who's gonna make a mistake like this? someone new to the hobby.... someone who doesn't know any better..... someone with bad habits....
something to consider!
8)

[Instar]

So, you want me to believe that copper at 15 or 20 ppm in a fish bag of about, what, 1 liter, if dumped into my reef of some 400 liters will give me what? About 1 part per trillion of copper? That comes pretty close to the copper trace in natural sea water and far less than whats in the artificial mixes, doesn't it? Providing I was silly enough to dump LFS water in my tanks and risk intro of all sorts of larval parasites and fungus that are held in stasis by their copper, that is. If they can't figure out that there have been hundreds and perhaps thousands of sick fish carrying all kinds of things in LFS water, then really, think about it... what are they doing keeping a salt water tank anyway?

[captexas]

Just as in many businesses, there are things they do to make their product look better that they don't want the customer to know about. A LFS deals with a product that goes through I highly stressful ordeal getting to them and they must medicate and do whatever needed to keep them alive and look their best so people by them. Dead livestock means no sales which means they don't stay in business very long.

As far as your question goes, yes they should tell customers about what meds they are using, especially something like copper. And, if you are going to be spending money on an animal, they should tell you what kind of health it is in. They should also tell you about when it came in, what it has been eating, what their water salinity and PH are so you can adjust to yours, and all those good things. BUT, other than a very select few LFS, when have you known them to be open and truthful about livestock and products? Really you just need to take the initiative to ask lots of questions before you buy anything. Then it comes down to whether you trust the person and respect what they have to say.

[reefer]

well, since you put it that way, instar, sorry for asking.
i guess you have no problems since YOU have such a large water volume in your tank.... and i guess YOU know exactly what lfs medicate their water and which ones don't.

par-don me.

[Instar]

No, I have no idea what all the LFS uses and yes I do have challenges of all kinds. I doubt many of the employees all know collectively what all is in the system(s) they are selling from in most of our LFS's. Its more important for me to know the salinity they have the live stock in that I am about to buy. I then check what they tell me and acclimate accordingly because changing that too fast will mess up living animals immensly.

There is far too much hype over minute quantities of copper. I posed such questions back to you, not especially for you, but to get people reading this to think about it. How much would you really be dosing copper wise if you did add a little LFS water? Once figured out, would it be significant enough to raise the quatity of copper in the system you (they or anyone has) beyond what is already in artificial salt mixes, some foods and some additives?

I think you would call dumping the bag into a nano a water change. In the case of adding all that to a nano, then it would do some damage. Why would anyone do a water change with LFS water? I simply posed the mathematical question back to you. How many gallons of tank are you talking about? In my example, thats really a pretty small reef tank as reefs go.

I am not authorized to issue pardons, you'll have to talk to the President or someone else for that.

[Richard]

he just stared blanky at me... the common sense of my statement must have caught him off guard :-o
8)

I doubt that is why he was staring at you.

Well I don't use meds in our For Sale tanks but I don't think any LFS is responsible for...
"Someone who makes a mistake"
"Someone who doesn't know any better"
"Someone with bad habits"

Doubtful you could wipe out a tank because of a little copper from some bag water, as Larry said. Regardless, this is not a hobby that is very forgiving of ingnorance, mistakes, and bad habits. It's a simple rule...don't dump other peoples water into your tank.

I think I would have asked why they were being treated instead of worrying about getting some bag water in my tank.

[Ram_Puppy]

There are very few reasons to ever dump fish store water into your tank, a frogfish, puffer fish, or a sponge would be the immediate entities that come to mind. But I think that medicationg your display tanks is really anicillary to the matter, how about quarantineing them before you slap them out for everyone to see and tap the glass on? Quarantine is where all medication should be administered. Fish don't say in the display tanks of stores that quarantine for very long, their obvious health and vigour make them a quick buy.

And if you want to get REALLY anal on all this, shouldn't your newly purchased fish/invert be going into a quarantine tank first? Granted, how many of us REALLY have a quarantine tank... I have a ten I ostensibly call a quarantine, but it just got done holding some goldfish for my wifes tank... the fact that it held copius amounts of copper makes me wary of ever using it again (which I think is justified since the green parasite medication actually stained 'bubbles' under the silicone... there could ostensibly be pockets of copper in the there too... imho, why take a risk? it's a 15 dollar tank, I'll by another.)

I would agree that good habbits on the hobbyists part are numero uno in importance, however, there are newbs out there that will have a hard enough time as it is buying 20 things and slapping it in their brand new tank before it's finished cycling... they don't know to ask... I can see both sides of the argument...

[wkopplin]

That is why I like CB Pets. They do quarrantine their fish and that is where their medication goes. They are very upfront with their fish and by the time they let you buy them, they are healthy and eating. That has to be a big expense for them to do that rather than throwing them in the tanks the second they arrive. That is why their fish may cost a little more, but, like I have said before, I have never had a fish purchased at CB Pets die on me.

I agree with Richard, know what you are doing or pay the price.

[z28pwr]

my point is...
that if a lfs is using meds in thier display tanks, it should be posted. why? because someone could make a mistake, or lack of better judgement and foul the water in thier tank, and cause thier reefs inhabitants to die accidently. who's gonna make a mistake like this? someone new to the hobby.... someone who doesn't know any better..... someone with bad habits....
something to consider!
8)

Why blame the LFS for something that individual does. If the individual is not smart enough to not pour the water from the LFS into his tank why would it be the LFS's fault.

I know many LFS's that run copper in their sytems. Some even have pieces of copper sitting in their sumps.

I don't think it's the LFS fault.

[reefer]

so is labeling a tank that copper/meds are in use a bad idea?
how much does a label machine cost?
how much effort does it take to apply a label to the side of a tank stating "beware: medication in use"?
shouldn't the consumer be warned prior to purchasing an item, that they shouldn't mix store water with your own?

Richard, we are fortunate to have a few lfs owner that go that extra step for the consumer, its nice to know that you are one of them, thank you.

we know that the final responsibility rest with that of the consumer. but a little effort on the part of the lfs helping out the consumer would be great also. 8)

[Richard]

No labeling or otherwise informing the customer that meds are in use is not a bad idea. However, that is not the question you asked. You asked if an LFS should be held responsible for damages if someone dumped the bag water in their tank and lost some animals.

I've been a hobbyist alot longer than I've owned a pet store and I have lost animals because of my mistakes. I've lost animals because of wrong advice from an LFS but I didn't blame them for it. My tank, My animals, My responsibility. If someone tells me to feed my tank a quart of motor oil and I do it because I didn't know better well it's still my fault not theirs, they were just wrong. Just my view of things.

[wkopplin]

I heard antifreeze works better :-D

[Ram_Puppy]

tell you what I have done in the past, when given bad advice by a fish store on I went back in, with a smile on my face, and flat out told them, hey, you were wrong. It was done in a friendly fashion, why not just educate if you can and move on.

Another reason a Fish store may not want to put a notice they are using copper up is simple... $$$ You walk in and see a sign saying "WARNING, COPPER IN USE" you think "THESE FISH ARE SCK" preventative maintenance might not even enter into some peoples mind, thus, for the cost of a lable machine a sale is lost...

best advice you can give anyone looking to buy fish, is talk to the person running the store and find out as much as possible. simple as that. The onus appears to be on the hobbyist. (after all, who else can you really, ultimately trust? your your own best friend and enemy.)

[saltcreepette]

im not touching this one with a ten foot pole cuz i like mike and i work for a LFS :D

just kiddin. I agree that its the hobbyist that needs to research and know what to do or not do. any basic book will tell you not to add lfs water to your tank. however, on the other side of the coin, I think it is a LFS's job to explain and help whenever possible or necessary. When I know I am dealing with a newb, (or when there is even a question of whether or not they MIGHT be a newb) I always tell them be sure to acclimate it this way (and then explain), and DONT add the bag water to your tank and why. Just one LFS employee's take on things :)