help with my upgrade setup

[Dozer]

Ok, I need some advice. I am planning out my next tank- 125L Oceanic. It will be a reef tank, some fish, lots of softies, possibly some LPS but not a lot. I'm trying to decide on sump/refugium design and pump(s). I will almost for sure have to do the sump/fuge underneath the tank, so I'm limited in what size I can do. Right now I'm leaning toward one of those Sterilite 30 gal. containers for sump/fuge. Any advice on that would be great also.

Mainly, my question is about pumps and overall flow for the system. I'm debating between one big external pump to run everything- sump return, skimmer, and provide extra flow in my display also. Or, have one pump just for sump return, another pump for just the skimmer, another pump on a closed loop just for flow in the display. Can anyone offer any opinions on this? My concerns, in this order, would be:

1) pump noise
2) adding heat to the system (don't want to run a chiller)
3) energy consumption

[ratboy]

The only problem with the tubs is you either need a heavyduty ($$) one or they bow when the fill w/ water. Also its hard to place baffles in the tubs. Id find a cheap used 55 or 75 (someone around here is always going bigger) and build and silicone in your own baffles.

I prefer redundant smaller pumps so if one fails you still have circulation and they are cheaper (I use mag pumps). Check the energy consumption before you buy your pumps. Some pumps will only give you a small jump in output but the consumption is much higher.
When you plumb your tank use black soft tubing. It wont grow algae or lose most of its force by hard pvc elbows. Get a scwd to vary your return flow and use a durso standpipe to keep it draining quiet.

[kaiser]

I used a sump that was the size of a 20L and a 20L for my fuge. It worked well, but it was a little bit of a challange for get it into the stand. I used a Mag 7 for a return pump and did not have any noise issues at all. I used powerhead for flow in the tank.
BTW still have a 125 for sale.

[GeoB]

I use a Mag 12 in the sump which, with some closed-cell foam padding, is pretty quite, definitely more quiet Quiet One pump. The Mag 12 goes to two SCWDs. The flow is good and random, but not very efficient. 120 watts to get 600-700 gph. I’ve got some heating issues. For return plumbing, using piping or tubing that is at least a quarter-inch larger than the pump outlet really increases flow (i.e. efficiency). For in tank flow, Tunze Streams would be the best for efficiency, but probably overkill for your needs, although they can be dialed back. For my someday tank, I plan to have a closed-loop or a Stream(s) for the majority of my flow, and use the smallest sized return pump that I can get away with. Not sure how to determine this, I guess it will depend on the amount of flow that is needed for the skimmer. Tunze is also coming out this year with a return pump and a skimmer that are pretty low wattage. I don’t know anything else about them except that they will be well made and pricy, but using fewer watts should eventually make up for it.

I tried plastic containers for the sump, but didn’t like them for the reasons Ratboy stated.

My problems with noise have been more from water splashing and gurgling in the overflow and sump. I recently learned a trick that really quieted it down. It requires two overflow drain holes, both capable of handling all of the flow. Put a tall drainpipe (like a Durso or Stockman standpipe) on one drain hole, and a short or no drainpipe on the other drain hole. Have a ball-valve on the drain-line from the drain hole with the short or no drain pipe. Partially close this ball-valve so that water backs up a few inches above the opening of the lower drain hole, but below the opening of the higher drain hole. The lower drain hole should be handling all of the flow without any air entering the drain. The hole with the tall drainpipe is only for backup since the partially closed drain might be prone to blockage. The effect is that, with no air entering the drain, all the gurgling noise of the water going into the sump is eliminated. It also reduces sump area salt spray and microbubbles. The ball-valve can be fine-tuned so that the water level in the overflow is high enough (just below the tall drainpipe opening) to quiet the noise of water going into the overflow. I got this idea from a person on RC who partially closed his main drain line and converted the return line in his overflow into a backup drain. A smaller backup drain would be okay since total blockage of the main drain is not too likely. I think 1 1/4” drain holes will allow most snails to pass through without getting stuck.

[matt]

I can give you some advice about pumps.

1. Use a separate skimmer pump. The characteristics of a good skimmer pump are high pressure capability and not really high flow. Iwaki pressure rated pumps are perfect for this, as are the Pan world pumps. The japanese iwakis and the pan world run cooler and are quieter than the american iwakis. They are, however, not super efficient as far as power consumption goes.

2. For closed loop and/or return, the dolphin ampmasters or the sequence pumps are very good. The sequence are supposed to be a little quieter. I don't think it's possible to have a true closed loop and your return on the same pump; IOW if you do it, your loop will be subject to the same head pressure as your return. Maybe there's a way, but I doubt it. Closed loop means just that, a sealed loop with no open water. This way there is no head pressure and when the power goes out there is no drainage. Also good for this application are the non-pressure rated iwakis and pan worlds, but you're talking about much lower capacities. (ampmaster/sequence are all 2000 gph plus, iwaki non-pressure goes to about 1200 I think)

3. One scenario which fits your requirements nicely would be this:
A)Iwaki or pan world skimmer pump, matched to your skimmer. For my small skimmer, (if you need to fit it in a standard stand) you're talking about the iwaki MD40rlt or Pan world PX100
B) relatively small return pump, like iwaki 30rxt or Pan world 50PX (I think that's the number) This is a return around 1000 gph, maye a little less when you figure head and line loss.
C) 2 of the tunze stream pumps, which are highly regarded for flow characteristics in a tank, use almost no power, are silent, and add almost no heat. You can get a controller which adds lots of possibilities for random flow, etc. This is an expensive option, no surprise! As an alternative, you can use either the smallest ampmaster/sequence, or the largest iwaki/pan world, on a closed loop with a couple of sea swirls or this oceans motion device, which is a basically a hub that direccts flow to several lines in a sequential pattern. This is also expensive, but probably less than the tunze set up. Let's see, $200-$250 for the pump, $200 for the hub, and a thousand trips to HD for plumbing supplies. I think the tunze set up that everyone raves about is over $700.

You might look at Anthony Calfo's books or articles about tank plumbing. He's got excellent ideas which might help you out. Also, even though these pumps are more expensive, I wouldn't buy cheaper pumps like mag for circulation. This stuff is going to be the life of your system, 24/7 for years on end.

[Dozer]

This is great info., thanks guys! A couple questions:

Does anyone else people plumb like Ratboy- flex tube vs. hard pvc? How are these connections secured, metal screw tighteners? I like how pvc is so much safer from a flood perspective, but I hear what you're saying about losing head pressure with every elbow...

Matt- Thanks for awesome breakdown on pumps. Now I'm going to go online and start pricing out the ones you mentioned. I'm the type of guy that tries to stay in the middle- meaning not top of the line (too expensive), not the cheapest either (usually end up with crap that breaks), so I'll look for some "mid-range" options in those that you listed. I actually already have a Mag 9.5 that I was trying to use for a homemade closed loop on my 55gal. (didn't work out too well, just like Ratboy was saying, the hard pvc elbows and tees brought the flow to almost nothing). My thought was to just use this 9.5 as my return for my new 125. Work this work ok for this job?

Also, consensus seems to be if you need to put dividers or baffles in your sump/fuge, don't bother with rubbermaid/sterilite containers. Makes total sense to me. I'm going to follow that advice.

[StephenA]

I have an Oceanic 120Gal tank. The new tanks come with an adjustable Durso Pipe to help with noise. I have the Model 2 sump (30Gal). I have an Ehiem Retun pump and a Mag 12 running my skimmer. Both pumps are in the sump The noise from the pumps is minimal. Most of my noise is water entering the sump from the flextube. All of my tube is flex tube under the sump. I ened up cutting the drain hose at an angle which helped with the noise. Heat has not been an issue yet. I have 2 150 MH on the tank. It is also an open tank. The temp has only hit 82, with a house temp of 78.

[RobertG]

I recently changed my return line from PVC to Flex. The flow is much nicer the bends just killed the output. I did'nt notice anymore noise. Just alot more flow. Durso's are nice. I put a grid cover on mine. Keep the snails out. PVC is still my choice for the drains. I ran a Mag 12 on my 115. It did OK & not to loud.