Fish died...any ideas?

[havrda]

I have a new 90 gallon tank which is now about 2 weeks old. I have live rock, live sand, sump, skimmer... I have had two green chromis in there. The first one died in a few days. The other died last night. I checked all of my levels and everything looks great. 0 nitrate, 0 nitrite, 0 amonia, 8.4 ph, normal alk. Now here are the only two things I can think of. One the water temp was 85. Second I put a cleaner crew in. There were quit a few snails, some crabs, 2 starfish, and 2 green ricordea mushrooms. Would adding the cleaner crew affect the fish?

[RobertG]

How was the fish acting? How is the water current in the tank?

[havrda]

Current is good. Fish hung around 3 different areas of the tank. Always hiding. I have a mag 9.5 for my sump pump, 2 maxi jet 1200 in the tank and a penguin 300gph for my skimmer. I am thinking he didnt eat a whole lot. Do you turn your pumps off when you feed?

[StephenA]

85 is a little high but shouldn't kill a chromis, unless it was stressed from something else. I don't turn off my pumps when I feed.

[wkopplin]

Sometimes Chromis just die. Your tank is pretty new, are you sure the ammonia is at 0? Which test kit are you using?

[havrda]

Red Sea Marine Lab Kit. Amonia test was yellow. Which according to the chart puts it at 0. Is this a bad test kit?

link to the kit http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=19517;category_id=3241;pcid 1=3233;pcid2=

[wkopplin]

It is not the most precise kit. Try a salifert kit. They seem to have the best results for me. I was using another brand and it was showing 0, but when I used the salifert kit, I got a much higher reading. With your system only being a couple of weeks old, you most certainly have some cycling to do in there. Depending on how well cured the rock was, you may have another couple of weeks to a month before you are cycled.

[StephenA]

I'd run some water down to aquatek and let them check it to be safe!

[btacker]

I was wondering what is a hardy fish to try in a new tank?

I have a 46 bowfront that was setup at the same time as Dave's tank. We are pretty much going through all this together, trying to learn as much as we can. I didn't add fish to my tank yet, but his dying is bothering me.

Oh yeah, and the rock came from Jim's tank so it should be cured pretty well.

[StephenA]

When I moved my cycled rock, my Ammonia went up.

[Brett Wilson]

Why not wait a few months to add fish?

Letting the system mature first sounds like a good idea to me.

My setup is 3 months old now and I am adding my first fish on Friday...

It's been recomended to wait because it allows the microfauna in your tank to build up first.

[havrda]

Sure. I was under the impression I needed a few fish to cycle the tank with.

[Brett Wilson]

In my opinion that is a common misconception. the rock is more than enough... but that is my opinion. I used to cycle a tank with fish as well....until I got tired of watching them die and learned that the bacteria have more then they need from the live rock.

[Tim Marvin]

Most LFS will still suggest fish to cycle..... Old school, and bad idea these days. Patience is a virtue.

[btacker]

Ok... Well, we both threw in a cleaning crew to control algea.

When do we know the tank is fish safe? What are we waiting to happen?

He tested and all his numbers looked good. I guess that is the part of this that bothers me the most. I know you need to wait for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates to even out, but once that happens you should be good to go, right?

[DeletedAccount]

I have never used fish or raw shrimp or household ammonia to cycle a tank (OUCH!). If you have life in there (i.e. live rock) then it will happen. I did feed my tank every few days for the bristle worms ans other critters... but that is just me.

Let the tank be for a while. 6-8 weeks is a common cycling time. And then a little longer so that the pod population can explode a little. This will make your tank much healthier in the long term...

[matt]

Yep, good advice on the waiting. The chemical environment of your tank is really unstable at this point, because it's basically managed by the micro-life in your system. Hobby test kits tell only a small part of the story. With regards to the clean up crew, I suggest you really limit your hermit population and go more for snails and worms.

[wkopplin]

Hermits are a PITA. A few are OK, but do not get the "Recommended" number, something like 2000 for a 20 gallon tank. That is insane.

[Instar]

Once you can see the micro life living along the sand-glass and on the glass, then you know you are getting started. Worry first about collecting pods, worms that are friendly and beneficial, etc. Then collect some interesting rocks with mushrooms on them and then some zoo rocks. They don't have to be pretty, just interesting. There is plenty of space toward the back to move them later when the time comes to get the colors that pop more up front. The best part about live rock like that is there is lots of life with it and it will grow in your tank. Once you decide to start adding life to the tank, after cycling some, its time for a series of water changes to get toxins out and good elemental balance in there. A live sand starter is going to be your best friend. Collect a cup from as many sources as you can that don't have things like flatworms. You don't want to run skimmers or use additives at first because you should be doing water changes. And skimmers remove many spawns of microscopic life. Test calcium often. New tanks can really use this up fast. If you did these things alone, many little sessile creatures will grow over the next couple of years and pods will establish their breeding cycles. Patience is the best friend of the captive reef.

[MixedGas]

Not to be cruel, but any fish or coral that dies in a tank, due to the owners lack of knowledge is wrong. First of all it's not just a Chromis and you should think very seriously about any animal or fish that dies in your tank. You need to go buy some books or due some serious online studies. Given two weeks and considering it cycled under any circumstances is a misnomer that just does not happen. It is only as stable as the present life will allow it to be. Again, due some research. If you think a tank is ready in this time period, due to water testing, just put some fish food in it as if you were feeding three or four fish or omnivore corals, then test it 36 hrs later. It will give you an idea, and a true start that your tank is ready to handle waste. With your posting and all that is presently in the tank, Your tank can't handle it. In the long run knowledge is cheaper than the tank.

[Brett Wilson]

MixedGas, you reiterated everything that was said above only you did it in a preaching manner.
It's easier to take someone seriously if they don't begin their time as a contributing member on the board by yelling at people.
There are many people that mislead beginners in this hobby; particularly local fish stores. If you read above you will notice that David was under the impression that he was doing the right thing. The goal of the fellow hobbyist is the help others, not fault them for taking the advice of the wrong person.

Please consider your tone and think about your audience here.

-Brett

[Instar]

Mixedgas: There's lots of ways to start a tank and different methods require different times. I have 10 growing seahorses that that started out in a tank set up in just a few hours. I didn't loose any of them. And that reef in my gallery, it had its first coral in it 24 hours after the water went in. That same coral has two daughter colonies now and its been over two years since. Knowledge is what let us do things like that. Please don't turn this into something like reef central has become with torts like that. We're here to help each other.

[RobertG]

I have to agree with the last 2 post, I myself have lost fish for reasons I thought were foolish. I scold myself for the lack of knowledge & learn from my mistakes. I do take my fish seriously as I know everyone else on this board does also. I know what David is going through & wish I knew of this website when I was at his stage in the hobby. This site has taught me lots of things. I never thought I would be this interested in reefkeeping. Lets keep the peace. 8)

[StephenA]

Mixedgas: Your condescending manner does nothing but frustrate an already frustrating issue. As Larry points out there are several methods in starting a tank. All have valid points. Who are you to come on this site with only 5 post and blast someone who is new to the hobby. David has asked many questions on this site to get ready to start his tank. Sometimes fish just die!

[havrda]

Wow. Well honestly I have read. I have a book and have done lots of research. The only problem is that everything I read that says to do one thing, you will always find something else that says to do something else. Very confusing. I had read many places about getting a fish to cycle a tank. Also some websites(and the book) when describing the chromis, refer to it as a fish that is often used to cycle a tank. Believe me it killed us to watch that fish die! We didnt want that to happen.

For now I will sit and wait. But since there is a lot of live rock with some coral on it does anyone have a good method for keeping calcium up? I have 4 Seachem products that was recommened by the garf site for the bullet proof reef. Right now it shows normal but a little on the low side. I plan on getting a better test kit for this today.

Thanks much!

[StephenA]

Drip pickling Lime in to the sump at night. It cost 98 cents at albertson's for a years worth.

2 Teaspoons of Lime to 1 Gallon of water, shake up, let sit for several hours then let it drip 1 drop per sec overnight. I use a HEB 1Gal milk jug with a airhose and valve hot glued about an inch from the bottom.

[havrda]

nice...thanks

[wkopplin]

Keep us updated on the system. Getting the live rock from Jim was a very good idea. You will probably end up with some very cool corals growing off of the rock. I know some people have used that Marineland Biospira stuff kickstart the cycle. It helps keep the ammonia levels down. Richard at CB Pets has used it for his tanks and has had success, but time is the best way to cycle a tank. Good news is you are already 2 weeks into it with some very nice Live rock. In a month, you will be in really good shape.

Are you using RO/DI water?

[havrda]

I also got some live sand/grunge from him as well. Man there was a lot of neat stuff in that. I am using RO water that I get from Aqua Tek. I have a big 55 gallon drum I fill up.

[wkopplin]

Your system will be just fine. I can only imagine what was in that sand. That will be very good for your system. There will be some die off, but the end result should be good. I did the same thing with my first reef tank, I added a couple of things too soon. It happens, you live and learn from it. The beauty of this site is that it is basically one giant catalog of mistakes people have made and will make again with very little judgement. If you have any problems, ask away. Better to get help early than let it develop into somehting big.

[StephenA]

I'd get some sand from other reefers. I've got some if you need it.

[havrda]

Sure. What do you do, just trade a cup of sand?

[StephenA]

Yep. You can just come buy and get a couple of cups.

[Instar]

David - Stephen knows how to start a tank, thats for sure. He'll be very helpful and so will his sand.

[havrda]

Is pickling lime the same stuff as pickling salt? I am thinking not but thought I would ask.

[StephenA]

No, It's got to be Ball's or Ms Wage's Pickling Lime. Albertson's has it.

[hi&bye]

i think u should get a few hermits ;-)

[matt]

If you're going to use pickling lime as a calcium/carbonate supplement, please read up on the use of kalkwasser; that's exactly what it is. There's a good description of it's use in the the book "The Coral Reef Aquarium" by Ron Shimek, which is a little book I think ought to be required reading by every new reefkeeper.

Make sure the stuff you buy says "100% hydrated lime" or 100% calcium hydroxide. You should understand that it has a ph of close to 12, and if overdosed or added too quickly, it will kill most animals in your tank. Dosed correctly, it really does great things, especially to a new system with lots of chemical uncertainties and a low/medium calcium load.

[MixedGas]

havrda: To you I apologize for being callous, I read my post and it did appear to be in that catagory as far as content. Since my post I have gone back and read all of your posts to get an idea of what you are trying to do. I will stand by the absolute neccesity for having your own library of the this hobby, and I know it is very expensive to buy these books. Many explain in great detail from start to finish the basis for sucess of the most popular setup styles out there. Once you choose the setup you want, you have reference guide specic to your tank and can make use of web posts and online help. The members of MAAST have given you sound advice for the most part, but it is hard for most to descern all that is posted because of the variance of the setups being descibed and the shortness of the responses. Due the right thing, for yourself and the tank, study the hobby more than you think you need to. By the way, High School, Public and University libraries usually have a great assortment of reaading material. (saves a lot of $$$) There is no hurry and really no way force a tank to be ready,(except maybe a nano with all its ingedients coming from an estalished tank) it will due so on its own. Good Luck and don't be afraid to ask me a question. I'm not an ogre and have been doing this for over thirty years.

[havrda]

ok thanks. I am looking in to the books.

[StephenA]

Here's a thread on books:

http://www.maast.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=4769&high light=books