Dow Flake

[georgeortiz]

Does anyone know where I can get some "dowflake" in San Antonio?

I am going to follow the Calcium/Alkalinity DIY recipe posted in Advance aquarist issue but, would like to use dowflake instead of the turbo calcium just to stretch my dollar more.

[dow]

Contrary to popular belief, I am NOT a flake! :lol2: :lol3: :-D :lol:

[georgeortiz]

Funny Dow,
Seriously, does anyone know where to get Dowflake in S.A. ?

[DeAngelove]

How about Home Depot... or Lowe's?

~Denise :-)

[georgeortiz]

I checked with both. Both said that they did not know what I was talking about and I looked in the masonry areas with no luck.
I was hoping someone in club used Dowflake and would be able to let me know where they bought it.

[DeAngelove]

Maybe the garden/landscape area? I bought some the other day from one here in Austin.

~Denise

[georgeortiz]

Can you describe the bag. What is the primary use?

[MikeP]

George , I posted at this a few months ago. I was unable to find DowFlake or any repackaged variant in Austin. I did not check swimming pool supply stores but supposedly they may carry it year round unlike hardware stores where it's seasonal.

I assume you've read the big thread on RC about it? Would be nice to have around but my big tank has finally stabilized so I am not having to add ca very often -

[GaryP]

Its primarily used to melt ice. Try looking at Lowe's or Home Depot in Amarillo.

Gary

[georgeortiz]

GaryP,
Thanks next time I am in Amarillo I will Check. :roll:

[georgeortiz]

Thanks guys,
I am just going to use kent turbo calcium instead.

[TAXMAN]

Check the pool stores first and if no luck, here ya go.

http://www.live-wire.com/seasonal.htm

http://www.mainstreetseedandsupply.com/saltproducts.htm

[Tim Marvin]

Car part stores carried it as a driveway de-icer,I beleive, but it is probably out of season now.

[miken]

I would be very careful using raw chemicals off the shelf. There are certain grades of materials (food grade, technical, usp, etc.), lower grades are not as pure and can have impurities that can cause problems.

MIKE

[prof]

Home Depot in Cedar Park had a couple of pallets of de-icing salt. Not sure what brand or chemical. It was sitting out front. Looked like overstock from winter.

[GaryP]

I've been using Kent Turbo Calcium as the basis for my homemade 2 part system.
I haven't been able to find the gal. buckets of it lately. I'm not sure if Kent stopped making them.

Gary

[TAXMAN]

Yea. Be sure to check the labels no matter what you find. It should only have Calcium Chloride. 75-80% range. The only other material in it is water.

[georgeortiz]

GaryP
You were nice enough to share the two part recipe with me after our meeting at Gator's. I lost it though. Is it the same one as specified in the post you submitted in the last issue of Advanced Aquariust a few weeks ago?

BTW I didn't see the gallon container of the Turbo Calcium at the few lfs's I visited. I will be on the look out though.

[GaryP]

George,

I make up a stock solution of Turbo calcium. It is 1 lb./gal.
I make up a stock solution of buffer. It is 1/2 lb./gal.
I make up a stock solution of Magnesium. It is 1 lb./gal.

I use empty vinegar jugs to make up the stock solution. I rinse them out with water and baking soda before using them.

My home-made buffer is six parts Arm & Hammer baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to one part Arm & Hammer Super Washing soda (sodium carbonate). I weigh out the two ingredients on a kitchen scale and then mix well in a large mixing bowl with a whisk. An example of a small batch of this buffer would be 600 grams bicarbonate to 100 grams carbonate. The only difference between this and commercially available buffer is a small amount of sodium borate. I feel that I get sufficient borate from my water changes.

I have two 6 gal. jugs that I use for make up water. I add the buffer to my "A" jug. I add the calcium and magnesium to my
"B" jug. I also usually add some Kent essential elements to add the other trace elements in the B. As soon as I use up the essential
elements I plan on discontuing this practice. I feel that I should be adding enough trace elements in my water changes.

How much of these ingredients to add is going to be based on the demand in your tank. You should just start with small quantities and
slowly increase the amounts while doing some testing. I use a 16 oz. beer cup to add the ingredients to the RO water in my make up water. I alternate using the A & B jugs when doing my daily additions of make up water.

I feel there are two advantages to this method.

1. Daily additions of A & B components so as to prevent dips in concentrations. This is as close to a calcium reactor or Kalk reactor
as I can get on my current budget.

2. Pre-dilution of the A & B additives so as to help prevent precipitation of Calcium Carbonate when adding it to the tank. In my experience, and from what I have heard from others, this is a common problem with a lot of two part users.

Hope this helps. PM me if you have any questions. I have never seen the large turbo calcium containers in the SA/Austin LFS's. The last time I got it, it came from Premium. I had an LFS in Charlotte that ordered it for me when I lived there. I'd be interested in trying the Dowflake if I can find some. I'm going to go to the Dow website and see if I can find a technical bulletin or MSDS for it that may contain info on any contaminating substances.

Gary

[GaryP]

Hey folks,

I found the technical bulletin for Dow Flake. Some bad news here. It does contain
Arsenic at 3 ppm and Lead at 5 ppm. This isn't a good thing. I'm going to work out some
dilution calculations to see if these concentrations are significant at the concentrations we operate
our tanks at. I think it probably won't be. Since we don't have data on stuff like turbo calcium, which
is probably the exact same thing, I may not be an issue. This material is approved for food grade applications. That tells me it may not be a problem. I'll get back to you in my next post.

One more thing I thought I would mention for those of you that have never used solid Calcium Chloride. It is exothermic when it is dissolved. That means its gives off heat. A lot of heat!. To solve that problem, I put my gal. jug in a sink full of cool water when I am dissolving it. I have had it warp the plastic of the jug in the past if I didn't do this and it wouldn't sit flat and I had to throw it away. Also leave the cap off, or on it loosely.

Here is the link to the data on DowFlake.

http://www.dow.com/webapps/lit/litorder.asp?filepath=calcium/pdfs/noreg/173-01531.pdf&pdf=true

Gary

[GaryP]

OK, I got the math done. At our usage concentrations, I used 425 ppm Calcium for the purpose of these calculations, Arsenic would be present at 4.5 ppb and Lead would be at 7.6 ppb. From what I have read, most synthetic saltwater mixtures contain as much or more of these compounds. I feel that this is not an issue.

I noticed two other things on a second look at the data on Dowflake. The first was that it contained 4% Magnesium compounds. This is a good thing IMO as long as they are readily water soluble. It states that there is 0.5% insoluble matter so that tells me that the Magnesium is soluble. I hope I didn't lose most of you with all the technical chemical jargon. If nothing else, Larry and Misti can jump in and throw rocks at my conclusions.

Gary

[TAXMAN]

Sounds ok to me. I'm definatly going to start mixing my own.

[Tim Marvin]

Let's see some tank pictures. I'm interested to see how the DIY stuff works.

[TAXMAN]

Well considering the original source, I trust it. And I'm goint to make some up and start using it. If Randy Holmes-Farley uses it, I think it would be good stuff.

Here is his article
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2004/chem.htm

[GaryP]

Tim,

I'll try to get some recent pics to put on here. I've been holding off until my SPS grows out some. My Caps have just exploded recently.

Gary

[Tim Marvin]

GaryP,
So does it work better than just Kalk? How long is it good once mixed? Can I dose it with my doseing pumps?

[Tim Marvin]

Taxman, just because Randy Holmes-Farley uses it doesn't make it god sent. It does sound good, I'd just like to see and hear some results from other reefers. Fortunately it is not a commercially made product so I tend to beleive Homes-Farley more than if he was, perhaps, getting a kick back.

[GaryP]

Tim,

The CaCl2 solution is good indefinitely. A gal. of the stock solution lasts me about one month.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kent isn't buying Dowflake, or something very similar and repackaging it as Turbo Calcium. After all, any of these commercial additives are simply repackaged or formulated versions of chemical commodities. With the exception of a few common items such as Dowflake and baking/washing soda they aren't readily available to the guy on the street.

Gary

[TAXMAN]

I didnt mean that it was god sent. But I do believe that if one of the most knowledgable and respected people in Reef Aquaria condone it's use and uses it himself, then it must be good and safe stuff. That was all. After all I think he compiles more tests on this kind of stuff than any other person on earth at this time. And I dont ever believe all that I hear and about half of what I see.

It also makes me feel good about using it myself when I know someone like Gary that lives close to me uses it as well. This can be helpfull more so than a person on a site when and if you have any problems with it.

[Tim Marvin]

I like the fact that Gary is close also. I am a little curious sometimes when the PHD's rave about commercially made products. It makes me wonder what they are getting. When it is homemade it is coming straight from them... I like that. I'm willing to give it a try, but I've used Kalk for a while with good results and I'm just wondering if there is a difference, better, than kalk.

[TAXMAN]

Yea, I am using the Kalk now myself with the Ca reactor too. But right now I am still having to dose a couple times per week on Ca and Alk. And if I start using this homemade brew, it should last a long time. Maybe once everything settles out in my tank and I get the Ca and Kalk set up properly, I will not have to dose anymore.

And I agree with you Tim about them being on the take when it is commercially available to us. But like you , I feel better that this is homemade and that he uses it himself. Actually a lot of RC people use it with good success.

[Tim Marvin]

SWEET!

[GaryP]

Let me clarify something. I'm not using Dowflake, at least that I know of. I have been using Turbo Clacium. Like I said, I said, I suspect thgat they may be the same thing or similar. I would like to try the Dowflake, especially since I am almost out of Turbo.

I will say that after looking at the technical data from Dow I don't see any reason why I shouldn't give it a try.

Gary