What sand to use?

[btacker]

I'm starting a new tank. I am going to use a DSB.

I was wondering what sand to use. Here are my choices from SuperFishStore:

Carib Sea Special Grade Reef Sand Aragonite CS1800 $26.95
Carib Sea Arag Alive LIVE Aragonite Reef Sand CS1420 $24.95
Carib Sea Arag Oolite Fine Sand 30lbs CS1181 $19.95

[StephenA]

Use a mixture of the Carib Sea Special Grade Reef Sand Aragonite and Carib Sea Arag Oolite Fine Sand 30lbs CS1181. Forget the so called LIVE Sand.

My tank is a mixture of 40 lbs Pure Caribbean Aragonite (http://www.purearagonite.com/home.html), 100lbs of Padre Island surf sand (http://www.nps.gov/pais/home.htm), 30lbs of Quickcrete Play sand (http://www.quikrete.com/catalog/PlaySand.html), and 30lbs of Tim's live sand.

Find someone in MAAST to get you some live sand.

[reefer]

before you buy a few hundred pounds of sand. read this:dsb discussion (http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23293).
8)

[lax]

the nice thing about the 'live' sand is that you don't have to wait days for the sand to settle, just a few minutes.

[btacker]

I'm guessing you are saying that DSBs go bad over time.... What type of sand are yall running and how deep?

[StephenA]

I think DSB's are good. Go read "Sand Bed Secrets by Ron Shimek". AquaTek has the book, It's small enough to read in the store. Dr Ron also post on Reef Central. My above post mentions what type of sands can be used. Go with at least 4" or more. The live sand in the bag at the LFS is nothing more than wet sand. Don't waste the money.

[reefer]

you really don't need a dsb. sure, like any sponge, they can clean up a mess, but if you are making a mess, then you're doing something wrong to begin with. and what happens to a sponge that is full? it will release everything it has captured over time back into the water column, and then, BAMM!, without any warning, your tank crashes, you lose your livestock and everything else you've invested in your tank over the years. if you plan on setting up a dsb, the best place for a dsb is in the refugium and not in the display tank. that way you can remove it and replace much easier.
but, that's just my honest opinion after reading thru #s of threads of dsb's crashing.
8)

[StephenA]

If you maintain them they don't crash. Just like anything else, if you don't take care of it; it will die!

[Dozer]

I'm a newbie, so I'm NOT going to make any recommendations to anyone else, but thought I'd throw out that I'm using the cheap play-sand you buy from Home Depot. I studied it a lot before deciding to do it and could not find any real reason not to. The biggest negative seemed to be that aragonite type sand can act as an "emergency buffer" like a crushed coral if your pH was to crash. Honestly, for one pH should never crash and secondly it would still fall well below 8 before this safety net buffer in the sand would kick in, meaning most reef critters would suffer anyway by that time. There were some people that thought silica based sand would release measurable amounts of silicates into the water which has been pretty thoroughly disproven. So in the end it seemed to be aesthetics (aragonite admittedly looks prettier, to what degree depends on lighting) and cost. I decided to try the cheap stuff and so far it's worked out for me. Not simply to be cheap, I was also curious and tend to be a DIY type. However, my tank has only been running for about 4 months or so- hence my reluctance to recommend it. Just thought I'd share, fwiw...

I would love to hear other opinions/experiences on this subject now that I've found this board. Maybe I'll have problems down the road that more experienced reefkeepers will know of?

[StephenA]

I talked to Dr. Ron about this on and off for a month. That's why I decided to use many different kinds of sand (including the play sand from home depot).

[matt]

Dozer, you are correct in your comments on sand. The only thing that really matters to the animals is the grain size and shape. But, in buying the playsand, you might consider how it's shipped and cleaned before sale; there could be foreign substances in the sand that are non-toxic to humans, but problematic in a reef situation. The purecarribean stuff looks terrific to me, and it's kind of in the middle between southdown and the caribsea stuff price wise. Actually, it's pretty cheap; shipping is a killer.

Regarding the deep sand bed or no debate, I fall squarely in the yes camp, although I would caution you that you MUST stock the sand heavily with life before introducing a heavy fish load. If the sand bed is adequately stocked with worms and other detrivores, it's truly remarkable what it does for a reef system, especially in the long term. The problems that ocurr with sand beds, including the one I'm currently having, are due to insufficient populations of sand animals. In my case, I'm convinced that a poor survival of animals from inland aquatics, not enough initial stocking, too big a bioload too soon, and a few flatworm treatments all contributed to my problem. Although, it's also possible that my corals died from something totally unrelated, like disease that spread from one colony to the others. All my LPS corals, clams, fish, and invertibrates are healthy. Go figure!

[StephenA]

matt, ITA!

[Dozer]

StephenA- I like the idea of real beach sand, any tips about collecting from Corpus/Padre?

[StephenA]

I got mine about 10 feet from the surf, the stuff on the dunes was way too fine. The sand looks good in my tank. I was careful not to get any trash in it. I also drove way down in the park where no one goes.

[reefer]

of course i'm the devil's advocate once again......
i would avoid gulf sand since alot of it is replaced with sand that has been dredged up. lots of polutants. just be careful.

i'm gonna run for cover now......

[matt]

What does ITA mean? If it's something bad I didn't do it. If it's good, well then, yes I did and thanks!

[StephenA]

I Totally Agree

[brewercm]

I've heard the stuff from the dunes is best to use although the finest grain size. It is constantly being turned over and sifted naturally which will eliminate most of the oil or chemical contamination from the beautiful gulf waters.

[Andrew]

I shall dissent against dsb's(no offense intended, just my personal opinion) :) I would go with 2-3 inches (what I have) of sand in display tank, more room for corals, and less expensive!!!! And if you go with a dsb, I recommend it in the fuge, much easier to deal with when or if something goes wrong.

At night when photosynthesis is virtually at a halt, CO2 levels sometimes skyrocket, esp. in heavily stocked tanks unless some measure is employed to counteract this tendency -- vigorous water circulation breaking the surface, powerful skimmer, etc. may help keep dsb & other critters from becoming oxygen-starved.

I've also run silicate sand for several years in the past without problems, just make sure it is clean (rinse very well).

my 3 cents

Andrew

[btacker]

Yall keep talking about heavy fish load. Let me tell you what I have and what I'm looking at.

Here is what I have so far for equipment:
1 - 46 gallon All-glass bowfront
1 - stand
1 - 2x96w Orbit PC light fixture
1 - AquaFuge External Hang-on Refugium (medium)
3 - Maxi-Jet Powerhead/Pump Model 1200 (295 gph)
2 - Tronic Heater (100 watt)

I don't plan on having many fish. Maybe 3 or 4 tops. ( I know I know... I say that now )

Anyway, my 4 year old daughter has to have a clown fish so I am looking at getting:

2 clowns
1 dwarf angel
and maybe, just maybe 1 firehawk ( I know I know... this guy is trouble... but he sure is neat looking and acting )

Would that be a heavy load for a 46 gallon tank?
Do I have enough water movement?
Anything I'm missing? I know I don't have a skimmer yet. I'm looking getting a Bak Pak.
Do I need to cover my tank? (Glass top)

[matt]

Probably your tank is too small for a DSB anyway; what are the dimensions of this tank? 45 breeder tanks are 36" by 18" and considered to be about the smallest surface area that will support the animal diversity necessary for a true living sand bed. If your bottom surface area is much smaller than this, you might have real trouble keeping enough animals in there to effectively process tank waste. If it's close to 36X18, go for it, just make sure you add new cultures of live sand containing live animals (worms, micro stars, etc) fairly frequently, like a couple of times a year. Also don't add any sand predators like sifting stars, sifting gobies, large hermits.

You need much more water movement if you wish to keep any kind of coral. My old 45 had 3 mj1200s and a return pump running 700gph. For fish only, I'd still use a couple of maxijets at least. Before you get too into this set up, please consider having the tank drilled, and using a sump/refugium in the stand rather than the hang-on refugium. That way you'll have a refugium with a much bigger capacity (necessary if you want to use caulerpa as a nutrient export) and a work space for skimmer/heater/top-off/Ca replacement. And you can use a decent main circulation pump; MUCH better than relying on small powerheads to maintain circulation in your tank.

Your fish load is not excessive at all, but I honestly don't know what a "firehawk" is. I assume you're adding liverock, correct? No glass top is necessary, but you'll have to protect the bulbs from splashes.

Have fun!

[btacker]

Tank dimensions are 36X16X21. I know a bigger square tank would be better, but I got this tank and stand for $150 at petco. They had it marked wrong. The stand was supposed to be another $225 and the hood another $100 (but I won't be using it because of that sorry light it comes with )

I know a sump is better. I'm a little too far down this road now though. I have already bought the hang on fuge and stuff. I'm sure there will be other tanks if this one works out.

That sure seems like a bunch of water flow. I read 10 to 20 times turn over. I'm at 20 right now. I have other pumps I can put on the system, but 30x or 40x sure seems like a lot. I can add another 2 400gph aquaclears that are setting in a box. That would put me up at almost 38x over turn in the tank.

I messed up. I ment Flame Hawfish. Sorry for the confusion. Its hard to work and type.

[StephenA]

IMO there is never too much flow. In the ocean the flow rate would be millions of gallons a day or more! My 120 has 2 AquaClear 802, Ehiem 1260 and a Mag 18.

[dow]

btacker,

A DSB should work fine for you, but the others are right. You need more water movement.
You can always add a hang-on overflow later, with a sump in the stand and a return pump. I've got a 45 breeder tank (45*18*16) with a similar setup. The overflow I have is made by Lifereef (http://www.lifereef.com/siphon.html) and works very, very well. For a sump, I am using a Stearite tub I bought a Walmart for about 3 dollars, and my bubble trap in the sump is a $2.00 waste basket. The return pump is a CAP 1800which pushes around 400 GPH at 5 feet of head. I think it was about 30.00 or so, but I can't remember for sure. I've also got two penguin powerheads in the tank. Oh yeah, my skimmer and heater are both in the sump.

[matt]

36 X 16 would probably work fine for a DSB just remember to keep it stocked and fed. You said something about 1 mj1200 for water flow; how does 300gph in a 46 gallon system equal 20X turnover? Maybe I missed something? Plus, don't count on 300gph from a maxijet for long; those things get dirty and slow down in a hurry. And, much more important than the gph is the characteristic of water flow; changing directions and speed of the water movng over the corals and live rock. Ideally you want multiple sources of water movement that produce random and varying currents in your tank. You can use wavemakers, oscellating nozzles like sea swirls or this new ocean motion device, etc. Even if you don't have corals, the lve rock will really appreciate the extra current. Without it, you're likely to have an algae farm.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I suggest you reconsider the sump/overflow idea before you get water in your tank. Maybe you can sell the hang on refugium if necessary or return it for store credit on something else, like a nice return pump. You're going to be happy you did this; I can't tell you how many times I've seen people set up sumpless systems only to break down their tank for drilling, or use a hang-on overflow, which is okay but not nearly as desirable as an internal overflow.

[StephenA]

Do the sump!

[Instar]

I've used AragAlive 2 times now and it is most definitely NOT just wet sand. Its full of life of all kinds. I use shallow live sand beds most of the time. AragAlive is a great sand starter and it does work. I don't use it all the time because it has too much life for my breeder tanks, but, in reefs, oh yeah.

[dow]

I agree with Matt on the overflow thing. While my setup works fine, my next tank will be drilled. Much cleaner looking, somewhat easier to maintain, and you don't have to worry about breaking siphon and flooding the house. While this hasn't happened to me (had mine up for over two years), i have heard of others who pumped gallons and gallons of water on the floor. If you DO go with a hang-on overflow, be sure and clean the J-tube periodically. I do mine whenever it gets completely covered inside with coraline ( 3-4 times per year). Which reminds me... It's time to do it again! :D

[StephenA]

Instar, for the money I'd go with Tim's Live Sand over anything in a bag.

[btacker]

3 - Maxi-Jet Powerhead/Pump Model 1200 (295 gph)

Currently have 3 - 1200 Maxis ( ~900)... I guess I will throw in 2 802 aquaclears (~ 800) for more power. That should be enough right?

I may go down the sump road in the future, but right now, I have this stuff so I guess I will try it out.
The whold DSB thing is still pretty confusing. I'm thinking I will just go with 2" to 3" of sand and hope for the best.

Hopefully with a light fish load it will all work out.

[btacker]

Funny how this turned into a flow / pump thread....

I was wondering if ya'll use sponges on your pumps or not.

[matt]

Gotcha, you said 3 mj1200s. That's a little better, but I'd still go for a central circulation pump. It really depends on the animals; for fish, liverock, and deeper water corals (softies, etc) you'll be okay with just the powerheads, but you'll regret not havng the sump and you need to have a couple of extra powerheads around, plus you'll be cleaning the **** things constantly. (Don't mind me, I just hate powerheads in the main tank)

If you're going with a fine sand bed, definitely go 4" or more. Much less and you will lose a lot of animal diversity, increasing the likelihood of the other DSB-dead sand bed, AKA detritus trap.

You really should read Shimek's Sand Bed Secrets, or at the very least, go to his author forum on reefcentral, and follow the link to general info about sand beds. It's free and easy, and you'll be in much better shape understanding how these beds work.