Taking tank apart because of hair algae....

[mharris7]

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I've been battling hair algae problems for over a year now. The past couple of weeks it's actually accelerating in spite of my efforts to get rid of it, so tonight I think I'm going to pull the tank apart, and put it back together in a way to minimize hair algae nutrients.

My water params have been decent, but I have had a .50 to .75 phos reading for a while now(nitrates have been zero and stay that way even without water changes - looks like hair algae is an effective nitrate scrubber ). I'll be darned if I can locate the source. I'm thinking of going bare bottom to eliminate any nutrients in the sand. I might even put a few power heads down on the bottom to keep detritus from collecting. I'll probably also pull out 4 damsels to reduce the bio load, even though they've been model citizens.

The tank is a 55+ oceanic and isn't drilled, so there's no sump. I thought about a hang on the back refugium but am concerned about the weight of the refugium hanging on the back causing problems and also about it being big enough to do any good. Ideally I think I'd like to go with something bigger like a 30 gallon refugium.....

side note, I've added a tang and a scribbled rabbit fish and neither will touch it, along with several urchins, various snails, ect.... It doesn't look like bryopsys - it doesn't have the branching/feathered look....

All ideas and comments are welcome.

-Mike

[MikeP]

Do a gravity fed refugium. Get a small tank set above the 55 high enough so that it can drain back and pump water up to it via a small powerhead.

[mharris7]

I've thought about that - not sure how to get another tank above it though. I thought about putting one on top of the canopy, but I kind of thought that was a lot of weight to put on something that is essentially resting on the lip of the tank....... It's a great idea but I haven't gotten the logistics figured out.......

[dan]

i would go with a nice size fuge if you could. i have a 250gal tank and not a speck of algae in it but my fuge is full of it,[hair algae] along with other macro algaes. i only have two tangs in the tank and they are allways picking on the rock. another thing is i use only RO/DI water which helps alot. water changes once every two to three weeks. [40gals] keeping your cal.at 450 ppm would also help. my fuge is a 40 gal. it also drains back to the main tank. the fuge is higher than the tank. [gravity] got to love it!

[matt]

The absence of a sand bed would probably only make your problem worse. What you need is a FUNCTIONING sand bed, meaning one with a high and diverse population of detrivores. This means lots of worms....
Do you have either a high fish load or a non-working R.O. unit? How about a good, powerful skimmer? Fish waste (or uneaten food) and bad make-up water are the only continuing sources of phosphate I know of. Heavy skimming is bay far the most effective phosphate removal method; that's been shown in tests.

Here's what I would do; remove as many fish as possible, and take out the rock one piece at a time, but not the sand. Use a brush or something to remove as much algae as you can possibly get; you have to remove the algae to remove the phosphate that fuels them. Then stock your sand bed with as many worms, micro stars, whatever you can find. Make sure there are no predators like large hermits or coral banded shrimp. If you suspect there are anaerobic pockets in your san, you might take a sample from underneath a rock or so; smell for spulphur. If it's strong, you may want to replace the sand.

Anyhow, apparently very few animals consistently eat hair algae. But, lots of animals will eat the waste products that bring the phosphate that the algae need to take over your tank. Many of these live in sand. Without them, the sand does become a detritus trap. But, the sand bed also provides a great habitat for denitrifying bacteria, so it's worth having IMO.

I don't know if you've checked your replacement water (probably) but if not, that's a prime suspect; both fresh water (TDS) and replacement salt water (phosphate test)

[dan]

MATT: you have a way with wordsmharris7, listen to matt

[mharris7]

Dan - how'd you get your refugium above the tank? I want to do a refugium - just trying to figure out the logistics for one. I even thought about buying a natures view 100 or 125 (you can get them cheap if you can still find them) and then make my 55+ a fuge to it). Of course the down side is cost. I'm trying to watch my pennies a bit right now (still recovering from being laid off a couple of times over the past year and a half).

On the deep sand bed - I've done a lot of thinking and research. I've done a dsb once and my tank was fine, but I also did caulerpa in the main tank. The caulerpa grew like mad and I think it did more to inhibit other algae growth than the dsb. The dsb was also fairly new and hadn't accumulated much in the way of nutrients. I agree dsb's process nitrates, but I am worried about how they handle phosphates. Phosphates will go into the sand bed - probably initially they will be absorbed to some extent by the bio-mass. But I get the feeling that eventually, there will come a point were the critters won't account for any further phosphate absorbtion. At this point you have to get an export mechanism for the phosphate or it'll leach into the water column.

That's why I'm leaning a little towards bare bottom with a refugium. The refugium seems to, in theory anyway, account for absorbtion and export of both nitrates and phosphates. The dsb seems only capable of fully processing the nitrates but leaves the phosphates in system where the continue to accumulate.

Oh, I forgot to mention I'm using a 4 stage ro/di. I also tested my ro/di water and phosphates were undetectable as were nitrates. I use a tunze skimmer - one of the bigger ones. I think its a 3130 model.

[Ram_Puppy]

my understanding is that most animals known for predating on hair algae, do so only when it is young and tender, i.e. once it has become what YOU and ME call hair algae, it's too late... you could try mowing it down and seeing if your animals get interested in it then.

[Tim Marvin]

A good clean-up crew can mow down the bad hair day.

[mharris7]

Tim - what would you consider a good clean up crew?

[Tim Marvin]

lots of snails, a few tiny hermits, cucumber, brittle star, and an emerald crab.

[Brett Wilson]

I'm very surprised that no one is asking about LIGHTING and PHOTOPERIOD. So, Mike, what do you light your tank with and for how long? You need only a few things to grow hair algae, and light is one of them.

[dan]

most animals known for predating on hair algae, do so only when it is young and tender, i.e. once it has become what YOU and ME call hair algae, it's too late...


this is very true. my fuge is on it's own stand to the side of my tank and it is 4'' higher than my main tank. i have a bulkhead at the upper 3'' of the fuge and it drains from there. DSB are fine as long as you have a lot of critters in it. appapods, cocopods, worms, miced shrimp, stars and lots of worms.

[mharris7]

Uh, I have 750 watts of halides - is that too much. :lol:

I do have 3x250 XM 20000k bulbs. I went with 3x250 because of how dim they are.

I only run them for a 7 hour photo-period though, from about 4pm to 11pm.

[Tim Marvin]

That should be sufficient. To grow hair....LOL.... I have had great luck with black mexican turbos on the hair.

[texasranchers]

Mike, I just read your thread and I thought for a minute I was on mine. When I was looking for answers on our tank I apparently overlooked yours. P.S. We have already taken tank apart cleaned, and put up again. Within day and half we had algae again. This is so funny, frustating but funny.

[mharris7]

well - I added a cowrie, 5 cerith, and 5 scarlet hermits tonight. Hopefully they'll help. I was going to take the tank apart tonight but it might wait until the weekend. I'm pretty pooped. :D

I already have some snails, hermits, and a tiger tail cuke.

I really want to do the fuge - just have to figure the best way to do it.

[Tim Marvin]

A refugium should help tremendously.

[malofish]

Whats on the other side of the wall ;-) If it's a closet or a garage, you might want to build a shelf and mount your fuge higher than your tank, cutting a hole just large enough for the pipe to fit in. Now the only probs. that if you don't have a sump, when the power goes out, the tank can over flow :cry:

[matt]

Something must be causing a build up of nutrients, especially phosphates. Typically, if you can test for them at all, there's a problem. Usually algae sequester phosphate so quickly that you can be producing enough to fuel a nasty outbreak, but can't test for any; it's all in the algae. I have to suspect fish food/waste. A refugium will help with this, but probably you'll need a pretty big one to have any immediate effect. Caulerpa is not an efficient nutrient export, so you need a lot. Supposedly xenia is a more efficient export mechanism in that it absorbs more nutrients for a given amount of bio mass. But, given enough caulerpa and enough light to get it growing quickly, it does help. I'd still suggest going with the sand bed; I'm sure you understand that the sand itself does nothing except provide for habitat for the animals that do the processing.

As far as installing a refugium, what's wrong with putting underneath your tank and having Dan make you one of those nice external overflows? His are much more reliable than the CPR ones.

Good luck!

[Henry]

Here is a link to a pic in my gallery of where my fuge is located in relation to the tank. The fuge is drill about 2-3" from the top on the back.

http://www.maast.org/modules.php?set_albumName=Henry&op=modload&name=ga llery&file=index&include=view_album.php&page=3

[GaryP]

I'd like to add one thing. Hair algae is usually a symptom of other prroblems, especially excess nutrients, overfeeding, or in sufficient nutrient removal as was stated several times previously. I have had tremendous luck with the reef janitors from GARF. The recommend a much higher amount of loading than you have done. I think their recommendati0ons may be a little high for long term use, but from experience I can tell you that they will clean up a major outbreak in a very short period of time. GARF primarily recomends mexican dwarf hermits, cerith and nerites snails for hair algae control. Several companies are now selling similar cleanup crews similar to this. If nothing else, check out their website for some good info on hair algae control.

Gary

[GaryP]

Another note. Physically cleaning your tank is a good idea. If nothing else you are going to export a lot of nutrient. and start with a clean slate that is more manageable. Ultimately you need to get a handle on your phosphate problem. Remember that a test kit only measures inorganic phosphate. If you are getting a positive reading, then your organic phosphate is probably much higher. Hair algae utilizes both organic and inorganic phosphate for growth.

IMP photoperiod is not a means of controlling hair algae. I have tried this in the past. It may slow down growth, but not in an effective manner. The cause of hair algae is nutrients and lack of effective grazing, not light. Effective control of nutrient export and export should be the first priority. Import can be controlled through better control over feeding. Feeding less several times a day for example. Export can come from better skimming, adding a refugium, or the use of a phosphate filter. Grazing is pretty much self explanatory and I covered that in my last post.

As was stated earlier, I don't think your DSB has any negative impact on your hair algae problems. I know from experience that sometimes we just panic and start looking for any solution that might seem to help. My first tank was a hair algae and factory and I removed the substrate with no recognizable impact.

I hope this helps,
Gary