anemone question

[Ram_Puppy]

being a concientious guy, knowing that Mandarins are hard fish to keep, I went to wetweb media and read all their faqs on them. Now, I am convined that I can keep this fish, I will have a well populated fuge by the time I buy one, plan on farming copepods, so on, so forth...

the planned stocking for my tank was to put one mandarin, two maroon clowns, and a rose anemone in... after reading the mandarin is a weak swimmer, and that anemones have been known to eat them, I am considering what I want more, the clowns and the anemone, or the mandarin.

The tank design is a 30 hex viewing tank with at least a 30 gallon fuge, and probably a 10 gallon sump before that, for skimmer operation and what not.

I figure that if you put an anemone fish with anythin other than a clown, your taking a risk, and I feel that i have researched the heck out of running a reef system (It took two years to go from the first book to my first tank) what I am lacking is practical experience.

[CG]

I think it'd be ok to keep the mandarin in their with that large a tank, unless of course the anemone is massive. It might get stung once or twice but will learn.

[Isis]

You should be okay with a rose... the types of anemones you need to worry mostly about are carpets since they tend to eat the fish that like to stay on the substrates and close to the rocks. Plus carpets tend to have more tacky tentacle, depending on the species.

[Tim Marvin]

The fish know what it is beleive me! Rose BTA are not that potent and you should be alright. Now a carpet on the other hand, in that small a tank, and you'll only have the clowns. Don't stress them out bad or they may become lunch also....
Seriously though, you should be fine.

[prof]

I agree. And if the clowns are hosting in the rose they won't let other fish near.

[manny]

What would be a good plan is to get the rose and the clowns and make sure they host. While you're waiting for your refugium to establish you'll have somethin neat in your tank to watch. Then when your refugium is all ready to go you can add the mandarin. That's what I'd do

[matt]

There's no problem with the anemone and the mandarin, but unless you can find a mandarin that will eat frozen bloodworms or something similar, it will probably starve. Didn't you post something about this before? It's really doubtful that this small a tank will support a big enough population of copepods/amphipods to feed a mandarin, even with your refugium. The refugium will only replenish the main tank at a slow rate, not enough to keep up with a constantly eating mandarin.

Also, a pair of maroon clowns will get pretty big pretty fast. I understand your desire to keep this fish community; it's a really nice one. I attempted to do something sort like this in my 10 gallon, but only one juvenile maroon at a time. The clowns outgrew the tank in a matter of a few months, and I inevitably ended up giving the fishes away to someone with a larger tank. (over 100 gal) You could keep true perculas or oscellaris and hope for the best with the E. quad as far as hosting goes. The mandarin I had did well ONLY because it ate frozen bloodworms when I bought it.

If you had, say, 58 gal tank, maybe even a 45 breeder with a big refugium and skimmer, you might get away with this, but in a 30 hex you'll have real problems down the road. Sorry.....

[manny]

Oh yeah, I didn;t notice that you wanted to keep a pair of maroons. From what I've read about em, they are alot easier to breed but as far as agression goes they are REALLY mean. I had one and she was my favorite but she got to big and mean for my tank. If you had a mandarin with the maroons they would probly constantly pick on it. You should try for some percs or false percs. They might be a better choice.

[Ram_Puppy]

ahhh... well, I would rather have the mandarin than the maroons...

Matt, AS stated in my post, I am planning on farming copepods, and the refugium is going to be 30 gallons and practically filled with live rock, rubble and sand. I understand what your saying, and believe me, I have no plans to bring a fish in only to die. I have already made the decision that if I am to keep a mandarin three conditions must be met.

Condition one: Won't be picked on by tankmates... so, the maroons are out.

Condition two: The mandarin must be accepting frozen/freeze dried vitamin enhanced food (using kent zoe) in the store. I have allready talked to a local pet store, when the time is right, when they get a nice looking mandarin that accepts bloodworms from them, I have first dibs.

Condition three: and most importantly, the tank and it's refugium must be capable of supporting copepod life in numbers suitable for the mandarin.

Now, yes, we had talked about this before, and it was stated I had a lot of crabs, well, most of my crabs are dwarfs, (about the size of a dime, and never to get larger) and three electrics blue/orange from the marshall islands, (one did not make it, and I don't think I will replace him). All of these crabs were selected for their affinity for algaes of all types, and that they are known for being more peaceful than the average crab. the biggest the electrics can get is about 1 1/2 inches. I don't forsee them making a huge dent in the pod population, but as I said, I lack practical experience, so it's something i am going to definately keep an eye on.

The other thing, is that the refugium wis going to have at least 60 pounds of fiji in it. Now, I have done a lot of reading, and from what i have learned, it's not how much TANK SPACE you have, but how much BREEDING space you have for the copepods. Most people run fuges I think to grow algae and export waste in a 'natural way. I will probably do this with the top 4 or five inches of the fuge, but everything below that I am planning on being loosely packed live rock and a DSB with plenum. This should provide an incredible environment for copepods to breed. And, it keeps me from having to put a horrendous amount of light over my fuge. (It's a 30 hex as well, and thus deep, and hard to light.)

Finally, I don't want to fail at this hobby, that's one of the reason I post here, I thank ALL of you for your contributions, it is many months, maybe even a year before I will feel confident in getting a fish of this type. One thing I have learned, is to take it very very slow, and be patient. Patience is one thing I don't come easily by, but this is an experience that will hopefully make that grow, I can be patient when I am affecting other living things. Rest assured, that the fuge and tank will be developed, my copepod 'farm' will be up and running, and I will definately not make a choice that is detrimental. I may not even want a mandarin in 6 months, I can tell you know that rose and the mandarins are still very VERY appealing to me... and I may in the end decide to stick with that combo.... the one thing I have always wanted in this tank, is an incredible amount of diversity...

Thanks all. (and as always, I welcome your feedback.)

[Tim Marvin]

Most mandarins that I have had will eat live brine as well, so if need be you could suppliment with them. I have to agree though, a 30 hex and 30 refugium probably will not be enough for a mandarin long term. Use lots of rubble in the tank as well as the refugium, feed the refugium powder or flake food, and lets us know how it goes. If the mandarin starts to get thin trade it off.

[Ram_Puppy]

thanks Tim, Well, I guess I may hold off on the mandarin for now. They are awesome looking fish, and I am sure everyone in the hobby is infatuated with them at some point... I think, perhaps for now, I will put it off. When we get a house in a couple of years I am planning on putting in at least a 150, maybe a 200... that will be the time to get him though...

it is sad really, my two favorite fish in the world are mutually exculisve, radiata lion, and mandarin... no biggie... the clowns are awesome too!

[Tim Marvin]

I'm not saying don't get the mandarin, just be ready to feed live brine or trade/sell/or give away if need be. Don't wait until it gets too thin to recover. With lots of rubble you may do fine. I would only recommend for a tank of 75gallons or larger with a good pod population.

[Ram_Puppy]

i understand completely Tim, I think perhaps it is not in the cards for now. :) maybe later, I will have one, just htinking this tank is not the right choice.

[Instar]

I have to compliment you Ram Puppy for your excellent preparation to do such a thing and for having the discipline to wait some more. That will pay off big time in the long run for you and your reefing. One comment on the refugium: You didn't specidy a plenum substrate size. If you start out with about 6 to 7 inches deep of course aragonite substrate and don't plug it off with a fine sand, and then the rubble on top, very well oxygenated water circulating across the top of the rubble, you'll have a great refugium. A pair of maroons in a 30 hex will own the tank. They will defend about that much area as their home nesting site from all comers. Almost all other fish in that sized tank with a pair will meet with rapid demise. It would work out fine in a 200 though as thats plenty of space for the maroons and other fish too.

[Ram_Puppy]

thanks Instar, that means a lot. Preperation to me, is the end all be all of a goo danything, you lay a good foundation, you will build a good house.

My mind is swirling with options right now, I am building the stand my hex is going to sit on, which I have realized, does not mean I need to conform to wha tis out there now... I think I am going to build a cabinet/case which will allow for a much larger refugium.. .I am not sure yet, I may stick with what I have... the odd shape of the tank (hex) leaves little room for work in a normal stand, so I was going to buy another 30 hex and use it as the main tank (no scratches) and move the old hex into the stand. I figured the verticle height in and of itself would lend itself well to a DSB and a refugium.. I believe the sides are 9 and 1/2 inches * 6, not sure what the square inches work out to be on that.

Also, I talked to my wife, while we are sure we want to see an anemone/clownfish relationship going on, we aren't dead set on the maroons... last night I showed her some pictures of clowns I liked, and she picked out some black perculas. I think those would work well, and if membery serves, they host in e. quadricolor as well, and I have not read that they are overly agressive. while that is all that we plan on putting in there now, it does leave us open to expand a little more than the maroons did... I was careful to pick inverts that won't bulldoze corals and what not, so I am certainly not going to put a fish with a scrappy attitude in...

I guess I am also right in the thought I need to get the anemone in before any corals so that it settles in to a local and won't move around stinging everyting?

I am not planning on any hard corals at this time, some xenia up top probably, some zoo's, and mushrooms down low... maybe a clam...

I will be getting a larger tank in the future, but, I don't want to back myself into a situation either where I have to get it, or trade out a specimen because it has outgrown the system. Slow and steady wins some races.

[matt]

True percula clowns will sometimes host in E. quadricolor. I don't think it's a natural host for them; unfortunately, the only natural hosts are H. crispa, H. magnifica, and S. gigantea. The common carpet anemone, S. haddoni, is not a typical host for perculas. All of these anemones are extremely difficult to keep alive for more than a few months in an aquarium. (Less than 5% survival rate after a year) But, lots of people have reported success in getting true percs to host in E. quad. And, as you undoubtedly know, you can get tank bred E. quads.

As far as the mandarin goes, you might have better luck with the spotted mandarin in terms of feeding it frozen food. In your initial post that I replied to earlier, you made no mention of feeding your fish frozen/flake food. That's why I replied as I did.

A 30 hex will not work well for a DSB; it lacks the space for a strong enough population of sand bed animals to perform the denitrification duties of a true DSB. And the shape limits the surface area of the sand, and thus, the sand/water interaction. For a refugium it's fine, and as long as your stocking is conservative your caulerpa growth will probably keep your nitrates manageable, especially if you have a good skimmer removing waste before it goes through the nitrogen cycle.

[Ram_Puppy]

I have not yet, but I am planning on putting a remora pro on, a little big for the setup, but I plan on 'growing' so I figured I would buy big the first time.

I had the same thoughts on the DSB, to little surface area. I was thinking better to try than not. I have also been playing around with my design over the last few hours (on paper) and think I like the look of a cabinet, and I realized I have a twenty tall out on my parents ranch, I am thinking if I use this as a sump that overflows into the refugium, then I have added to my volume easily enough... heck, if the canopy ends up looking nice enough, I may just sell it and move up to a larger tank now. :)

I need to stop thinking and just commit to a design and go!