Coral Parasite in MAAST Population (et al) - Red Acro Mites

[Instar]

Please read this entire message carefully. It contains the beginning of some very important information that you must understand completely before doing anything.

This is an informational message about a serious coral disease that has infected my reef and quite possibly yours too. Its quite likely that anyone who traded or obtained frags from me got this disease also. It is also likely that its been passed around on frags and colonies and was obtained from vendors. I've talked to everyone that got frags from me except for one and have his phone number now.

The disease organism is a little red mite. Sometimes appears yellow or goldenrod depending on lighting and the host coral color. It is not visible under the blue light spectrum, even to my camera. It is only visible after switching on my 10K's to both my eye and my camera, even with a flash. A perfect camo for a bug in the ocean.

It is reported to come from a south Pacific Island but the larval development and dispersal strategy that I have witnessed indicate that it can be carried for days on ocean currents at any life cycle stage.

The Red Acro Mite can easily hide within coral polyps and does, often going completely unnoticed.

Symptoms: Coral color goes kinda flat. Later, with heavier infections and after long term stress, bleaching starts as does regression and RTN. I've lost two corals to aggitation for unexplained reasons. It is so heavy in my tank that even other stoney corals are affected other than acros. I've even seen the Red Mites on photosynthetic gorgonians. I'm sure they don't intend to stay there, but, they were there during migration to other parts of the tank. SPS when infected show marked reduction in polyp extension.

Treatment: A prescription medication that is used on round worms and dog heart worms and mites (mange), trade name is Interceptor. Active ingrediant is Milbemycin Oxime. It is extremely toxic to all marine crustaceans.

MAAST Members who plan to treat their tanks for this Red Acro Mites:
Myself: No option. Its either treat or watch the rest of the collection die.
Jim Norris: He plans to follow as a preventative treatment.

Details and a complete write up with references to the leader in developing a cure will follow. The original cure was developed recently by Dustin Dorton of ORA Farms in Florida. Dustin has treated his coral systems 8 times now to be sure the bugs are gone. This treatment has not had long term testing.

I plan to start the first treatment in a few hours. And yes I am extremely nervous about putting what amounts to an insecticide in my reef! Who would ever do such a thing?! But, my tank has had insecticide in it on a previous occassion by accident. That time it was a very dangerous one that should have killed everything with a digestive gut, but, it didn't. So, here I go with a treatment.

New test species: This has not been tested so far as I can tell on Goniopora (Flower Pot), Tubastrea (Sun Coral), Tubipora (pipe organ), or Sea Horses. I will also be reporting on a clutch of goby eggs, about 350, 100% fertility as it has not been tested with this either.

My plan: I plan to remove my cleaner shrimp. All others will stay in the tank. This includes 3 mated pairs of coral crabs, enough single coral crabs now to fill the rest of the colonies, clear coral shrimp, pistol shrimp, numerous pods of all kinds shapes and sizes including mysis. I have fed heavily last night and tonight to gut load the shrimp and crabs as much as possible. Hopefully they will be most inactive because of this and sleep through the middle and brightest part of the day as that is the time they are most inactive. Failing this, and assuming recovery is at least partial on clean up after the treatment, I will feed them heavily again to induce defication. That is a strategy (induced by specific dug treatments) often used on human beings in the hospital to reduce toxins in the body or blood stream. I will begin treatment at 10:00 or close to it this morning.

A complete write up, history, eitiology, dosing, refernces etc will be written for a MAAST reference in the educational archives. You can read about dosing and experiments with this on RC and Reefs.org. Our version will be factual information, condensed without a variety of posts inbetween so that it will be a clear and concise and as complete as possible resource for this disease. I plan to inculde post fertility studies as well and possibly more down the road. No long term effect has been determined for this treatment. It is VERY DANGEROUS in my opinion.
Watch for updates on progress and further details. At this point a pretty fair number of people have treated their tanks across the states other than the first 7 reefers who were test subjects. The tests were conducted under very loose standards. Jim and I will use the same method, dose and clean up. He has one salt brand, I have another. We will report the details on both. Again, Jim's treatment is a safety precaution, preventative, not because he needs to treat. Mine is necessary, no option as the infestation is very heavy. Many pictures to follow with more details in the publication.

What you can do: Observe your SPS corals. Look for very tiny little specs running around on them. They do not host pods. That what I thought so I overlooked them. These things on the tissue of an acropora could be Red Mites, a parasite.

Look closely at the second picture. Across the crest in the light area the mites are wall to wall. They appear kind of yellow. This is extremely enlarged. The coral frag is about 2 inches across and is very heavily infested with the mites.

[Jimnorris]

Thank you Larry for the alert! I have been following the RC thread with watchfull eyes. I do plan to thread my tank for preventive measures. I will follow your lead just times it by 2!!!! I have taken several corals and fragged them from my tank yesterday. I do have a mircoscope which reveal nothing??? But I still am going to do the treatment. I think if there is any doubt it MUST be done.
Larry please keep us updated as I will also. I plan to start the threatment tomorrow.
Jim

[Sherri]

Wow....good luck Larry...please keep us posted. You also Jim on the preventative action. Great info breakdown on the subject Larry. Very interesting...You just never know.

[Instar]

The treatment is in the reef.
Coral shrimp removed.
Acro crabs were inactive; feeding seems to have worked other than for one
that seems to have been attracked to the beef flavoring.
I have a log started with pictures of each step. There should be no doubts on how I proceded on this
or the outcome with the pictures to help digest it all.
This is what kept me from the frag swap. Knew something was wrong, just not what it was at that time.

[RobertG]

Larry Sorry to here about this problem. This bites. Will be interesting to follow the treatment. Hope all turns out for the good. Good Luck & Can feel your pain. :cry:

[oliver]

I have had those things for at least 6 months - noticed them at about the same time as all the threads started on RC. At first, I believe that they did cause some loss of colour in some of my acros, but after correcting some of my water conditions, including addition of a phosphate reactor and rowaphos, the bug population is slowly declining and the corals are looking better. I personally think that trying to kill them with this treatment will probably do more harm to the tank than is necessary. I do not plan on doing any treatments and believe that these things will go away on their own with time.

[Brett Wilson]

I am with oliver on this one. I have had these bugs int he past (over a year ago) but do no see them in my system now. I never treated for them......... Nor did I ever see any coral death/discoloration from them. It seems tha they favored a green acro that I had that looked a LOT like what Instar shows.

Good luck.
-Brett

[Instar]

Oliver, I hope you are right. I've taken this route on other things. Trouble is my tank has been stable for a very long time and very regular maint and water changes. I added a little Kent Iodine and the zoozanthellae that these things supposedly eat looked temporarily better. I figure that was temporay and would not
dare trade with anyone again if I wasn't sure the mites were gone completely, not just in some seasonal dormant stage or reduced in numbers. Then again, if I don't treat I'm going to loose at least 50% of the large colonies as that is how far into this I am.

At 2nd hour: 2 coral crabs dead - removed. Still can't catch the rest of them, although they could reintroduce the infection if I did.
All 116 hermits are down. Pods and mysis still ok.

Mites are having difficulty hanging onto coral. Some are still active. Little pock marks or irruptions where the mites are, have become visible on the coral.
Its as if they are either trying to burrow in, lay eggs or make a coccoon around themselves. Unknown what reaction this is at this time.
Fish, softies and seahorse all ok as expected.

[Brett Wilson]

I hope your system has something left to eat all of the dead crustaceans after this, namely the 116 hermits. how big is your tank?

[Instar]

Me too. Thats the next thing to sweat out. I'm not real sure they are dead actually. Tank is 125 gallons plus 20 gallon refugium and
sump that can hold about 25 gallons. I have lots of little bristle worms to do the job of cleanup.

The mites are almost gone now. This particular system has not had anything in it that didn't proliferate and live on. The mites are just one example of that.
I have one frag that is actually starting to look like a small colony from Garf that was the most incredible very deep midnight blue you ever saw.
It was so covered with mites I couldn't even see it anymore. It has faded to a light brown, barely any wisp of a blue or purple one tip. Its starting
to show the hint of polyps now that the mites are gone. I haven't seen polyps on that one for months.

I managed to rescue one coral crab. They just don't want to give up their coral for anything. He is in another tank now and hopefully will recover from
what looks like a neurotoxin. Otherwise, its a 100% kill rate for coral crabs. So that presents me with another problem when something floats along and
gets stuck and blown deep into the coral colony there is nothing in there to clean it out or eat it. After this is over in a month, anyone know where I
can buy some coral crabs?

Other than the crabs, everything else seems to be tolerating this without regard or notice at this time. More details will follow in a reference write up.
Ultimately everyone has to decide if the losses or risks are worth it or not. For me, I chose my acros over some things that I believe I can replace or
rebreed. I am not at all happy about having to make that choice, but, I can not begin to get all these colonies out for dipping. And even then, what
of the coral crabs? They won't tolerate that either.
I have mysis and pods in other systems to restock if necessary.

The future for me consists of coral QT and dips to keep this from happening again. And since it would appear that some elect not to treat, we may see
this again if those people start trading. I would ask all of you who do not treat, not to trade frags and pass this on. It doesn't die out on its own for some
of us. And in that case, it does kill.

[adamRS80]

I'd also be interested in knowing where coral crabs could be purchased. They're very cool and I just love getting them along with a coral but I'd love to have them in all my corals. I don't think anybody sells them but I just thought I'd ask. Don't mean to change the topic of this important thread.

[Instar]

Joshua, Greg Hiller has an article on these bugs in the Advanced Reef Aquarist. In it he says the the SeaChem Reef Dip
is not 100% effective on heavily infested colonies. To me that means there is a percentage that survive the dip.
If there was only one and that was the one destined to survive the dip, then you will have them if it got fertile at some point.

[Instar]

Its done. 25% water change with IO, carbon canister hooked up with 1 pound of activated carbon.
The pods live on as do the gammarus shrimp. A scarlet reef hermit walked out from the shadows to graze on a rock a few minutes ago.
The bugs are dead and mostly blown away in the current. Few still stuck in little mucous strands. Looks like corals
really do have polyps!

Mortality is consistent with that reported by others. All red acro mites are dead. A 100% kill of the coral crabs as well except for the rescued one.

The following appear unaffected:
5 copperbanded butterflies, hippo tangs, 6 lined wrasse pair, bicolored blenny, pair of clowns, seahorse, goniopora, tubipora, tubastrea, scheronnpthia, small tiger stripped brittle stars and egg clutch
do not show signs of degredation at this time. All others, leathers, zoos, zenias, yellow polyps, clams of different species including Tridacnia and bivalves show no signs of any harm at this time.

[Instar]

Procede with caution!
If anyone else has questions about doseage, please ask. There is a lot to digest on reefs.org about this.
It only took 1/3 of one tablet to do this treatment!
The measures and mg instructions combined with the label on the Interceptor are all very confusing.
One tablet treats 380 gallons one time. One tablet is almost 1 gram and contains 23mg of Milbemycin Oxime.
The weights and measure given for dosing are for the whole tablet, not the actual active ingrediant amount in each pill.
It would be better to talk to me if you have questions than to wipe out
more than you had in mind due to an over dose, if you are one of the ones who decides to treat for these bugs.

[R.Allard]

Well Lary I have gone over everything in my tank with a finetoothed comb and didnt see a single one so
it must have occured after i went to your house if your looking for a time frame and might help others if you can remember when i picked up the frags.
Im not adding anything to my tank or taking anything out for atleast two months as to see if they show up.
If they do ill treat my tank.
Robert

[Instar]

Robert, You were here January 17, 2004. I've had these longer than that, I am reasonalby sure of,
although maybe not enough to have been on the ones we fragged that day. I made one trade with
someone who lost their entire tank for unknown reasons but all those frags are doing quite well for me.
That trade was too close to the time you were here to have had an impact if that was the source.
The corals going bland and bleaching has only taken place over the past month and it takes a pretty
good infection for that to happen. And I did have a heavy infection of them. I know as density in a
population increases, so do the successful spawnings. I believe these have been in there for a number
of months and since I wasn't looking for such a thing to be a damaging parasite, I ignored them. I did
see them. There were no symptoms at that time. I can't recall when I noticed them exactly.
I hope they don't show up in your tank ever. We were selective about your frags and I don't remember
seeing anything on them at all. I would recommend dipping all new aquisitions now as mites
can not always be seen. And in the case of someone whose corals are looking pretty good and growing,
they may not even think about there being something wrong even if they did see the mites. An ounce of
prevention. But I hope you don't ever see them or have them.

[R.Allard]

here is a site for ya on these little pests http://www.littlereef.com/redbugs.htm

[Tim Marvin]

I have been sitting here staring at my tanks with a flashlight and can't see anything. Do you need to magnify to see them? Also can you see them move?

[Instar]

I can see them move and actually can see them quite well with ALL the lights on during the day time. They are extremely small though. And on some corals, unless the light casts the shadow perfectly, almost invisible. I had lots of them on an orange colored coral yet could not see them at all. Extremely difficult to see on the blue corals too. With the actinics on, even with all of the actinics on, and the camera flash, they were invisible. It was not until I switched the 10K lights all on that I could see them. That picture was shot a few seconds after I turned the 10K lights on. I doubt you can see them at all with a flashlight. They show better on a brown, tan or green coral. Or one that used to be real nice that turned brown and/or bleached. I could also see them quite well on the ribbon gorgonians but those are also kinda brown with the purple.

It appears in the post treatment and water change that 2 hermit crabs are alive. One scarlet reef hermit and one micro blue leg hermit have recovered. That is a total of 2 out of 116 hermits. The rescued coral crab is recovering very slowly. I still don't see any mysis even though they were active through most of the treatment. I have not heard the familiar click of the pistol shrimps and do not see the sponge-decorator crab that I forgot was in there. I won't be able to check for any mites that may have made it until tomorrow when the 10K's come on. I swear the corals look better already. Thats gotta be my imagination? I still expect losses from this because it was so far along. I hope that I am wrong. The clowns ate a hermit that died. It does not appear to have done anything to them at this time. I am still considering another 25% water change tomorrow, but, will decide that depending on what things seem like in the morning.
Since the pods and gammarus shrimp are fine, I may not do another water change till after the 2nd dose next saturday. I have a variety of pods, not just the white copepods and will have to evaluate all of them over the next day or so. Bristle worms and snails do not seem affected. I had numerous nerite snails laying eggs and will have to give my general impression of their egg laying as time goes on over the next month as I have no way to actually count them. I would like everyone to know exactly what they are dealing with if or when they have to treat for these things. Until this treatment came along, I do not know of a treatment that was 100% effective and I don't ever want these pests again.

[Jimnorris]

Larry well done! I have just prepared my tank. Turning the air off in the Ultramatt skimmer and removing the carbon from my canister filter that feeds into my chiller. I finished mixing the dosage and put it in my tank at 6:00am. I have 4 pounds of new ESV carbon ready to go to work at noon. Also I will do a 50 gallon water change.
Jim

[Instar]

Sounds good Jim.
I did about 30 gallons of water change and am running 1 pound of carbon in a tube shaped canister with a mag 5 driving it.
I'll turn the skimmer air back on soon. Left it off overnight cause it tends to foam excessively following a water change.

Event with unknown consequences:
The copperbands and clowns have eaten a couple dead hermits. Don't know if thats good or not.
2 hermits are eating other hermits. How can that be good?

Positives:
Captured a large pymidelae (sp) snail from the edge of my teardrop maxima.
Some small nassarius snails are in there. I didn't even know I had any of those.
1 crab, perhaps a porcelain crab was perched on top of a rock last night waving claws around.
Heard the light snapping chorus of the pistol shrimp this morning.
Xenias look better than ever. (something was munching on them, maybe still is?)
Positive response to extremely postitive response in all corals. I've never seen polyp extention like this on some of these.
Polyps starting to show on all the ones that were infested heavily. Polyps not seen in months.
Perhaps may have knocked the web worms down some. Great by me if they are all gone.
All the large feather dusters are out this morning to feed. All so softies are great!

Negatives:
Loss of coral crabs.
Loss of most hermit crabs.
Unknown other crabs?
I expect to loose three large sponges (different species) as they don't tolerate rapid water changes like that due to the differences in calcium and alkalinity.

[Instar]

UltraMatt skimmer - I like that. The carbon cannister I'm using is an UltraMatt cannister.
Thanks Matt!!! It works great!

[adaminaustin]

I am glad everything did go as well as you expected Larry, hopefully saving many prized acros. Sorry about your losses.
That is some crazy scary stuff.

[Jimnorris]

Well it has been 3 hours into the treatment. I did not know I had so many coral crabs?????? Have not lost anything yet but the crabs seem to be coming out to the outer edges of the acros. I have notice that my acros are extending their polyps to a lenght I have never notice????? And yes I have notice two frags that have the red mites!!!!!!!! One is from SeaWorld a bright yellow green that before I got it is was dip in Seachem and a fresh water dip. This was done about a year ago? The other is from Tim (Marvin Monster) See picture. None of my montis seem affected or any of my tricolors????
Jim

[matt]

Hey Jim;

I got that tricolor frag from you at the frag swap. Do you think I'm in danger? So far I can't see anything on it, but these things are really small and my eyesight is not the greatest. I'll get my maginifying glass out. Good luck to both you guys with this treatment!

[Jimnorris]

6 hours are over! 50 gallon water change complete! NO RED MITES ANYWHERE!
Man did my corals slime up. NO (none that I can see) acro crabs died!
Same coral after six hours and a water change.
Jim

[Jimnorris]

another picture

[Jimnorris]

Matt,
I looked and looked and even put a frag of the tricolor und my mircoscope---ZERO? But then again I did not have millions, thousands or even hundreds yet?

[R.Allard]

Well i went and got a magnifying glass and sure enough there they are!!!
well i guess i know what im doing next weekend.. and i thought i was going to corpus....
Ill try and call you larry as soon as i get a chance.. ill be working in London Texas all week and just comming home
for one or two nights this week.
Robert

[mharris7]

man that sucks. Are their any biological controls for these mites? My first thought was that a couple of dragonets might go to town on them.......

[Instar]

Robert - call on the way in a few minutes. Could not get on here last night - tried and tried.

I had way more mites than I ever dreamed. Couldn't see them cause of the colors of some of the corals. I could after
4 hours of treatment cause they made little mucous balls that were white. I have serious damage to my entire reef.
RTN is progressing on some corals, white band disease caused by the male yellow clown goby's nesting hormone secretions
and regressions from the bottom. Even though polyps are out more than I've ever seen on most (some way extended - beautiful)
the bleaching is really serious on the heavily infested ones. It looks like I'm on the brink of an sps coral crash. Sure wish I had
figured this out sooner. You guys are blessed to see it early. Perhaps if I had seen it early I would not have treated and not have
said anything? I may have been tempted to let things work themselves out and in that case I would be right where I am now anyway.

On the up side: Something laid eggs last night. Is a crystal clear mucous ball about the size of a marble, 4 times larger than ever before.
I figure its some kind of snail, but, don't know. There are hundreds of minute white eggs suspended inside the ball. Its attached by one
side of the ball. Too far back from the glass for me to take a picture, I think. Clown goby eggs are continuing to develop. Saw a live
larval fish drift by in the current. Looks like a clown goby larval stage from a previous hatch. How it is surviving in there I have no idea.
The hermits were knocked out cold. Some were attacked and eaten while they were paralyzed. Saw some recover, one of at least 3
scarlet reef hermits shed and has a perfectly good new shell. Micro blue legs are waking up. The one I thought was eating the other
must have been giving him resusitation? Later on they were tumbling around doing their usual thing. Some did get attacked and eaten
or killed. The critters in there have enough energy to dump shells and frags off the frag tray. I think they are mad at me???
ALL of the mites are gone! My magenta colored Acropora Pulchura (sp) is absolutely gorgeous with polyps out like never before. Even the frags.
Gotta love that!

Downer: All coral crabs, even the rescued one died. Still don't see any mysis, but, those were hard to find anyway. Bristle worms
moved into my large pipe organ a couple weeks ago. They are starting to do damage and the copperband is not paying attention.
Maybe because there are a few crabs to eat and worms going for the crabs are the ones he is getting??? He used to tend that
pipe organ like it was his mother. The bristle worms are starting to harm it, so it seems and I can't catch them.
I gave AW a call and Ivan is going to order me some pseudochromis at noon today for delivery tonight or tomorrow.
Which one of the red sea vareity is the least aggressive to other fish that will for certain eat the bristle worms??? Kept in pairs
or trios??? That is what I prefer to do. I am afraid that if I don't solve this right now, there is only one way I know of to get the
worms out of a pipe organ coral and that is to smash the coral to small pieces. I really, really don't want to do that as I have
had this way too long for such a thing. Worms and pipes definitely do not mix.

[Brett Wilson]

Not to be a serious downer, but corals extending their polyps to an extreme measure usually means stress.
Like when people see polyps out 'in the bag' on new corals, that's often just another sign of stress.
Borneman has elaborated on this a bit.

Just trying to be realistic...

-Brett

[Instar]

Thanks Brett! Will keep that in mind. Actually they are not sliming like they were before the treatment. Anything food like that I put in there
made them slime all up with strands of mertins... whatever its called before treated. They are not doing that, and truthfully look quite healthy,
the ones that have their polyps out. They are accurately reacting to the day/night cycles. I'm sure though, that interpretation of polyps and
reactions is quite difficult. It looks as if I have changed over to Bioassay salt mix even though I did not. Really only corals that didn't have
that many mites on them are doing that. The others are a more reserved that have had so much damage. Anyway, I'm pacing the floor cause
waiting to see if its recovery or crash is nerve wrecking! I've needed a sedative for days already. Greg Hiller talks about what happens when
some colonies get this badly affected and the reaction being kind of synergistically passed on the the neighboring colonies. In close quaters
that would be easy to do. And he then goes on to describe a complete and total sps crash. I am witnessing what he wrote about here,
right before my eyes. Early treatment is the only way to go, that is for sure.

[Instar]

I just pitched a poccillopora colony, sometimes known as stylaster or cats paw into the back yard. It was starting to recover
and grow back over the damaged parts from shipping too. It lost a branch last night. Polyps were out, went to make a phone
call, got an answering machine and left a message, came back for a look and the entire thing was completely consumed by
RTN. Just that fast, just that simple. I guess its little doubt now how bad this infection was or what the fate of this reef is.
Sure do wish I had caught it early more than ever now. I guess I can stop pacing now. I'll still treat for the 2nd and 3rd
doses to be sure I don't reinfect and the tank is clean. Perhaps a frag or something will survive this??? And looks like Greg
Hiller's article about the mites in living color, the ending part where he talks about the sps crashing. Makes me appreciate
some of the things the guys who write these must have gone through.

[Jimnorris]

Updated on my tank: GREAT! With alot of luck I have not lost anything other than red mites! Robert G. was over and saw. Larry how sad. Keep us updated please!
I will be doing the second treatment this week. To clear up a statement I made about my corals sliming up this was due to the 50 gallon water change. Many of them in the upper 5 inches of the tank were expose to air for about 30 minutes. I actually think they enjoy this???????
Jim

[Instar]

Jim - Great! But, do you actually see living coral crabs? Mine did what yours did. They came to the outer edges of the coral and
then just before they became paralyzed and died, they went way back inside the large colonies, into the shadows where I could not
see them. I found them dead as they started falling out of the bottom of the tables and I could see a claw or leg. Pulled them out
with tweezers. It only took 1.5 hours to kill them. If they are dead way back in there and start decay in the coral, it could cause
troubles there??? I put them in clean salt water, but, none revived. Not even the one I got out with a net alive made it. He died
during the night in a nice little nano.

[Tim Marvin]

I have been staring for hours, either I'm blind or I am lucky.

[Jimnorris]

Larry,
Yes my crabs are still alive. My acro crabs did not come out on the edges until the treatment was going into the 4 hour???
Tim I have been looking at my corals for many weeks until I saw some???
Jim

[SueT]

I've heard about these red mites for so long but never heard of any treatment.

Larry, let me ask you this. If say nothing was done are these red mites fatal to a frag/colony??? Meaning if someone was not able to diagnose the red mites and say the system had them and nothing was done, would it be fatal??

Best of luck to you Jim and Larry. What else are we reefers to have to over come??

[Instar]

SueT - Yes if nothing was done it would eventually be fatal. And not to just the one, others will follow. I am suffering this now as they have sucked almost all the zoozanthellae out of several pieces. It looks as if there is only a light colored skin over the coral skeleton. I have lost a couple of pieces. Some that were real bad are hanging on, maybe even have a slight touch of color back in their tips. I was loaded real good, just could not see them. It takes bright white lights to see them. Some people are having luck with a bright flash light and magnifying glass during the brightest part of the day. I do have polyps back on my purple tip cerealis frag now. Thats a good sign! Its not purple yet, but, maybe we'll get there now?

[Instar]

Actually maybe the best example is the midnight cobalt blue coral I got from Garf. I could see the mites all over it. (It did not come to me that way, it was clean when I got it.) Best way to describe it today is, take a look at the palm of your hand and put a slight tint of faded purple in about 1 mm of one of the tips. Compared to what it was, its not a pretty sight, although, its bug free now, so there is a chance that it will color back up some over the next several months. Its grown a lot too and is fully encrusted and encrusting over 2 nearby rocks. Its a strong coral, but, if not treated, it was soon to be a dead piece too.

[mharris7]

Can someone post some more info on these critters? I'm still trying to nail down why this exteme treatment is the only know cure. I've done a couple of searches on a few message boards. Nothing in depth yet - I just haven't turned up any solid info on this parasite.

I don't think these little guys are true mites (those are terrestrial only?)- maybe some kind of parasitic copepod? If that's the case unless they've developed some kind of toxicity there should be lots of critters that'll happily munch on them(as mentioned before, dragonets, yellow coris wrasse, ect....).

Sorry, a lot of those questions may be out of ignorance - I'm sure there's better info out there on this problem than what I've found so far.......

[R.Allard]

Well i got home from work early today and decided to treat the tank..
Im about 1 hr in .. ill keep ya posted :(

[R.Allard]

mharris7 here is a little infor on the bug
http://www.littlereef.com/redbugs.htm

[R.Allard]

well 3hrs in and no deaths yet except the bugs :)
the blue legged hermits dont seem to be moving much but still have their eyes and feelrs moving arround..still see a few bugs but not at all as much as when i started.

[::pete::]

Im curious ... for my own knowledge. If they are hard to see and hard to detect and might not be seen till weeks or months later wouldnt it be safe to say after trading most have it?

Im sorry for the ones that do, but it seems logical.

[R.Allard]

Well its over.. and the carbon is running. it wont be till morning when i change the carbon out that ill see if i lost anything.
All the corals are Squeaky Clean..there are a few pock marks where the mites were munchin on them but other than that they look good .. ill find out within the next few days how much damage they have done and what survives.

[Instar]

Mites, like red bugs are all general terms. The best way to refer to something is its scientific name. For that with these bugs we have only limited facts and lots of theory and opionions. Joshua names it right according to the latest literature. Members of the Harpactoid family are thought to contain parasitic copepods whle members of the stenothoid family are not. Genus name is thought to be Tegastes. These photos were taken by Greg Hiller. I will publish a complete reference on this in the near future. Till then, get a bright white light and keep checking your acros. Be very careful and use preventative measures. (I'll be using a real serious QT series from now on.) I'm taking notes and lots of pictures. Please be patient. This is the only known treatment and it was pioneered very recently by Dustin at ORA Farms. Theres is still much to know and I am sure everyone will be interested in the effects of this treatment on all things in the reef in general.

[mharris7]

hmmmm - lotta cool information out there. Wish I had more time to study. I still think there is probably a natural predator - unless these little guys develope a toxicity.....

Off the wall question - can you freshwater dip corals? I know you can dip clams (suprised the heck outta me when I found that out - they actually handle it pretty well). Freshwater dips would kill the pods pretty quick - probably in 5 minutes or less...... I've never tried dipping a coral or even heard of anyone trying it........

[brewercm]

I did it a while back, not for any other reason than to get a mantis shrimp out of the rock that it was on. Hasn't bothered the coral at all, it was only in there for just about 2 to 3 minutes though until he came jumping out right into my net.

[Instar]

I've had 100% mortality on the corals I've dipped in fresh water, so, that has not amounted to many. Others have told me they have 50% mortality on corals dipped in fresh water and others see them bleach all out after that. And I was told that was not effective on these bugs by someone like Hiller or Cubera (don't recall who)? I've tried the bottle dip by Kent, but, it doesn't stop some protists or bacteria 100% of the time at the normal strength. If a FW dip worked (or some other dip), wouldn't ORA use that? Dustin treated his own personal reef with the Milbemycin Oxime too. The thing is to get the bugs from the system, eggs, larva and all I had to treat the entire tank. They can really hang on.. could be inside a pipe or something. I am for the natural method myself if it can be discovered. I didn't save any bugs. Is there someone who didn't treat yet who will donate some of these bugs to me to study?

[Tim Marvin]

I'm still looking for some.....If I do find any you can have them...

[mharris7]

yeah - there has to be a natural predator for them. They're plankton after all. :D

Actually, some 'pods develope a toxicity by eating things that have nasty chemicals in them. I remember a Dr. Ron article about some nasty pods that ate, I believe, cucumbers of all things and became toxic by ingesting the cukes toxic compounds. The ocean is such a weird place, who knows? :)

If someone studies the bugs, I'd start with wrasses - they'll eat **** near anything they can put in their mouths. Yellow coris might be a good start.....

Another thought I had was that, by the time these critters get to problematic levels, they may be beyound what a natural predator can control. IE - when Greg Hiller tried dragonets the mandarin may not have been able to eat more than were reproducing and therefore not have made a significant dent in the population. I'd be curious to see what fish were in tanks that developed problems before the problem was noticed. If there is a consensus of a lack of pod eaters, maybe that's partly to blame???? Just hypothesizing. ;)

-Mike

[dustin]

I didnt see anyone post the link to the instructions anywhere, so I thought I would do it.

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=45859

Please feel free to ask any questions you might have.

Dustin Dorton
Oceans Reefs and Aquariums

[Jimnorris]

Dustin,
Welcome to MAAST!
Thank you for the GREAT work you have done in the battle of the red mites!
I plan on my second treatment this Sunday.
There are dozens of ORA colonies (started as frags) in my tank! ORA is top notch in my book!
Jim

[Instar]

R.Allard - How are your cleaner shrimp and blood red shrimp??? Did they make it?

I have to agree with Jim - Thanks for the work and for being so careful Dustin!

One point to clarify - Each tablet contains 23 mg of Milbemycin Oxime. The tablet weighs about 1 gram.
Weigh the tablet, don't try to calculate how much the drug itself weighs. One tablet treats 380 gallons of water column once.
You do not need a dozen boxes of Interceptor. One box of 6 tablets will do several members tanks.

[Instar]

2nd dose is done. No causualties. Dose reduced by 20% to compensate for what seems like an over calc on water column.

[Tim Marvin]

OK! Thanks to a fellow reefer I have just found out I have them also......Very tiny! I guess I'll be treating also........ Jim, do you have any pills left? I guess I'll be going to the Vet on Monday if not...

[Jimnorris]

Tim,
Yes I have an extra pill. Once you see them they are actually very interesting?
My second treatment starts tomorrow.
Jim

[Tim Marvin]

Oh boy, I can't wait......LOL.... Will one treatment do it?

[Instar]

No. To be sure of getting larval stages and hatched eggs, it takes 3 (at least). I did the 2nd treatment 7 days from the 1st one. My 3rd treatment will be in 2 weeks, 14 days from the 2nd one. A life cycle could be a month till any eggs are susceptable to the drug. And then we watch and hope and pray that we got them all. Take your shrimp out if you can catch them. We still don't know how Robert's shrimp did. There is something to consider with the shrimp. Its not uncommon for pods to survive a digestive gut. In the off chance that a shrimp ate one of these things carring eggs and the eggs survived digestion, then you could transfer them back to the tank again if the shrimp are not treated. I chose to save the shrimp and removed them since there is no evidence that shrimp eat these things at this time.

[RobertG]

1st dose is in @ 2 hrs now. I dont have a bunch of stoney corals at this time. However I did notice them. Hav'nt seen to many. Treating before I swap to new tank. Swap at 12:00 today. As this is at the 6th hr. I guess i will need to treat again in 1 wk. Jim were can I get another tablet. Or do I need it? My Hermits look stiff now not moving. Little pods look to be swimming fast all over undersides of rock. Snails still moving around on glass. How fast do these things spread. Does this treatment kill the larval at first stage? If very minor, transporter has only been in for 3 wks. Small frags.

Swapping to 240 from 120 I guess there is still a chance the things could of laid eggs by now. This should Cover the water change well, should I do another in a few days?

[Instar]

Why do you need another tablet?? One tablet will do 120 for 3 treatments with some left over.
Wait at least 7 days for the 2nd treatment if you decide to do another one. If you are moving rocks and all, then you may as well get the 3 treatments over with before you really get involved with building your new tank up. After that, good dips and maybe a QT tank if you get colonies with base rock attached may be a good idea?? (See Joshua's dip method posted earlier.)
I really hate that there are so many unknowns here. Hard to make decisions with this.
I treat, then change 30 gallons of water and then start up about 2 pounds of activated carbon in a 125 with sump, refugium. I estimated about 100 gallons of total water column after subtracting rocks, corals and substrate displacement. Each treatment takes less than 1/3 of a tablet for my system.

[Jimnorris]

Larry,

I gave Robert a piece of a pill that I used for my first treatment.

Second treatment started at 6:00am---50 gallon water change at noon!

Jim

[Instar]

Oh, I was worried when he said his hermits were all stiff looking. (si of relief)

[RobertG]

Larry everything looks fine, I am in the 12 th Hr. :zzz: :scold: No no no cant stop now. The treatment is done. Everything seems fine.

I have swapped the whole tank over to 240. Everything still a little stirred up. Crabs are all moving around. Snails starting to explore. Have little Lobster, he is fine Wanted to be released . The treatment did not seem to affect anything except the bugs. Gone from what I see now. Gonna take time for everything to clear up so I can check out more thoroughly.

Robert

[Tim Marvin]

Robert, I am going to start treating also thanks to your darn x-ray vision! I'll get a pack and we can split it if you want. Since your in a 240 now you'll need a lot bigger dose. I think I can do all my tanks with one pill. There is 6 pills to a pack, I beleive, so 3 should be enough for me and 3 for you. Also do I understand you own a car accessory shop???? A portable DVD player would be nice for the kids if you want to get me a price.... I can either give you cash or buy you a load of corals for you at wholesale.

[RobertG]

I wish I owned it. No I manage the shop I've been there right at 10 Yrs. Now. Yes I need more pills, we can split the box.

I can get you a Mobile entertainment package.
I'll get with you on price. Will need to figure out your needs. I carry a full line of Audiovox products. Alarms, Tint, & stereos. Plus more. Its work!

[Instar]

Robert, glad to hear it went well and on target. Once we're all done with this, then all we have to do is keep from recontaminating things. And that should be fun!?

[Tim Marvin]

I just got home from the Vet. Man they don't just hand the stuff over, especially since I told them I was treating a reef tank with it...LOL....It blew me away though that one of the Dr's. actually had heard of this treatment and she did not have a tank....Anyway, I have 12 pills, but they cost me $119... Expense? Is that the going rate? I thought that was high. Robert, if you want some drop by $10 per pill. I guess when you look at it like that it isn't as bad.

[Tim Marvin]

WOW! Glad I triple checked... I had Sentinal which also had Luferon, (I think that is what it was) in it for flees. I returned the box and bought interceptor which they had in the back. It is a little cheaper. I bought a 6 pack which came to $44.88 so Robert, it is only $22.44 for 3 pills. A little cheaper at $7 and some change per pill.

[Tim Marvin]

OK treatment is done....That was fun! I lost one scarlet hermit..He was a big guy and needed to go anyway. The nassarius are getting a feast so it all worked out for the best. All acro crabs look fine, I'm not sure about the pods or mysids. all corals, fish, cucumbers, emerald crabs appear fine. I have not seen the peppermints yet. Over all I am as happy as can be expected, after dumping toxic waste into the reefs.

[R.Allard]

well both of my shrimp.. Blood red and Fire Shrimp are doing fine im going to do the second treatment on tuesday afternoon.
all my hermits died and was able to remove them after the died.
as far as my pods and all they seem to be fine.
another note to everyone keep an eye on your PH i noticed
mine jumped up for some reason arround the 5 hr point.
it did go back down to normal levels and i may be splitting hairs
but my tank is always at 8.24-8.32
when i noticed the ph it was at 8.59
as long as that tank has been up i have never seen it that high.
this could be one cause for crabs etc croaking.
Ill be watching the next time i treat the tank.

[RobertG]

Tim I'm in. Not by choice though. Lost Passer in swap. To stressful for him. Lost couple of hermits, everything else looks fine. Do it again Sunday.

Thanks

[Tim Marvin]

I'll pm you.

[Instar]

Most of my hermits, the ones that did live, took about 12 hours or more to revive after the treatment. A few of them started to revive after about 3 hours, but most took longer than that. I think more may have revived but they were eaten by other things while they were paralyzed. They looked dead during that time they were paralyzed. Since I reduced my second dose a little because of better estimate on water column, they were out grazing the rocks this time during the treatment.

[Tim Marvin]

Ouch! I may have killed some thinking they were dead already.

[MikeDeL]

So should I be looking for this in my tank, since I got my live rock from Tim?


Thanks,
Mike

[reefer]

i need one of those roundworm pills to disenfect my tank of those red mites. but i haven't seen any dewormer on the shelf that has that active indregent yet. also, the vet i talked to says that they wouldn't prescribe them to anybody unless they had a dog with roundworms. so if anybody has a spare pill of this interceptor, or know of a stray mange mutt.... :lol:
8)

[Tim Marvin]

I have some pills. If you want one they cost me $7 per pill.

[reefer]

i'll trade him to a good home for frags....
8)

[cubera]

These mites will generally only infect select colonies and many species will not become infected at all. Infected colonies should be removed from the main tank, dipped in synthetic seawater very slightly tinted with Potassium permanganate solution and the mites gently blown off the colony with a powered head. This can be done weekly until there are no visible mites. We have plenty of Potasium permanganate solution (reef safe at recommended doses) if anyone would like to try this method. HTH

[oliver]

Which of you, having done the treatment, have had their coral crabs survive? I am thinking about trying it, but have hundreds of pretty coral crabs that I don't really want to kill. In fact, the colonies that have a crab or two seem to be less affected by the bugs.

[oliver]

Jim, at the beginning of this thread, you were saying that most if not all of your crabs have survived. Is that still true?

[Jimnorris]

Oliver,
I have now completed two treatments with the third and last to be next week. The first treatment I lost nothing! The second treatment I think I lost afew acro crabs.
Jim

[Instar]

but have hundreds of pretty coral crabs

Oliver, Pretty coral crabs? Where did you get pretty ones and where did you get hundreds of them?
These bugs are really sensitive to Milbemycin Oxime. Be real careful with the water estimate and measuring the pills and go for the lighter side of the dose if you decide to do it. There is a lot of difference in this post on how my crabs reacted and Jim's reacted. Mine came to the outter fringe of the corals in about an hour. Jim's took 4.5 hours. Mine didn't make it, his did. At least most did. Don't know how many times they can go the round though. 3rd dose is to come, but it will be 14 days since the last dose instead of 7 this time. If the crabs fare better with a longer interval, that may be the solution as well as not overdosing. If you're not in dire need and may not be because of all the crabs, if you can hold off till we are done with the 3 treatments, then you will have a full set of information to base your decision on.

Cubera, I only wish our systems would allow us to remove and dip. Impossible with mine and since we don't know where the bugs reside during life cycles (eggs, larva, cysts), I just want to be sure they are completely gone from my system totally. Either that or never participate in a frag swap again as well as always wondering when the bugs will return to haunt me and cause such troubles again. Knowing what they do now to a reef, I could not allow one thing to leave the premises ever again without knowing the bugs are gone. None of this sounds like good options to me and the treatment, once done, should be it. The rest can be controlled by QT tanks and dips for future incoming things. Potassium permanganate is a very strong oxidizer and dye. I can't imagine putting that in my reef and faring well. I used to use that as a dip, but never would dream of putting something like that in the tank.

[Instar]

MikeDel, yes you should look, of course to be safe. But, they are carried on SPS corals and don't really inhabit rocks. Thats not to say there can't be hitch hikers or cysts, but, I wouldn't go for treatment unless you have some idea the bugs are there. Getting frags from one of the people who has had this may be justification for a treatment. If that is not the case, practice safe methods (dips, etc., new arrivals no matter where they come from) and you should be ok. I would avoid trading with one of the folks who has the bugs and is not treating.

[Tim Marvin]

I will not be frag swapping anymore. I will be selling frags after the treatment is finished, but will not take anymore trades or trade-ins unless it is something super rare and I'll dip/QT.

[oliver]

Thanks for the update guys. I have a coulple of connections at the wholesalers and have asked them to give me whatever coral crabs that they can salvage from dying colonies which they cannot sell. I have gotten at least 50 crabs that way. Some of them are really quite nice - bright yellow with bright red and blue spots on the shells. Anyway, I have tried to insert the crabs into acro colonies infected with red bugs, however they would not stay, moving on to other colonies. Again, the colonies that have resident crabs seem to be much less affected by the bugs. I really have only three colonies which I am upset about because of bleaching, but for now, I think that I will hold off on treating the tank until I find something that is not so deleterious to the other occupants.

[oliver]

OK - I treated my tank last night. All the bugs seem to be dead, as well as all the coral crabs (RIP). What do you guys plan on doing if you get new corals for your tanks. I personally am a little obsessed about buying new things that I see on the internet and get at least one package per week. I do not have a quarantene tank and usually have just dipped my corals in Seachem.

[Jimnorris]

Oliver,
My personal plan is to let you buy the corals and then I will buy frags from you! No really I plan on treating each ever coral I get.
My third and final treatment is this Sunday!
Jim

[oliver]

Wow Jim, that is going to be some kind of pain in the @#$. How do you plan on doing it? ?Put the corals in a 5g bucket and adding a chunk of interceptor for 6 hours. What about the 2nd and 3rd treatments. The only good way of doing that would be to set up a quarantene tank complete with high water quality and halide lights - since you would need to keep the corals in there for 3 weeks.

[R.Allard]

I Brought home some corals from the meeting that had the red mites on them from gators house and wanted to do a test with them.
here is what i found out .
i put the corals with the red mites in a 2.5 gallon tankof SG 1.022
salt water and treated them with 3.5 times the recomended dose of Kent Tec-D. After
5 minutes the bugs were barely hangin on by the 10 minute mark they were all dead... i changed the water out to fresh salt water for
30 minutes and repeated the dose for 10 minutes.
I changed the water out again and ran 1lb of carbon in a canister
on the lil q-tank and all seem to be fine so i put the corals in my tank i will say of all the corals the purple monti was the one that
seemed to take the longest for the polyps to come out .
I have done 2 treatments and havent seen a single bug and spend about an hour a day after work looking for them.
this might be a "solution" to our problem as far as putting new corals into a established tank that have the mites.
Robert

[oliver]

Sounds good! There were some reports on RC that iodine dips did not completely kill the bugs. Please keep us informed if any bugs recur on your treated corals. That treatment would certainly be much easier than using interceptor 3 times!

[Instar]

I plan to set up a 100 gallon QT sps tank. All frags and incoming will go in there as there are other pests I don't want as well. If the frags or colonies don't grow in the QT or have some other nasty thing, that will give me time to figure out what to do with the situation. I may make exception depending on where a frag comes from. I got flat worms and those parasite stars twice from experienced members who should know better. I got some real nasty things on Figi plugs as well as something that tunnels thru the coral like a gopher, killing as it goes from Dr Mac. Also got real nasty web worm things that kill the coral from his colonies. Won't buy any more of those split double colonies now that I know what makes them not grow in the middle. But, in case I get a bad crab on the base or something else, the QT will help me find and get rid of that. Perhaps in the process I can figure a way out to get the acro crabs out so they can be saved. Maybe expensive, but, you only have to loose colonies once to some mess like this and it seems justified. I hope the dips work, but, I'll still be doing the QT tank anyway.

[Tim Marvin]

I did my second dose Monday and took out the acro crabs as well as two emeralds. Then of all things, I forgot to set the return in the cube to aggitate the surface, and with the heavy fish load that tank had it became de-oxygenated and nailed my two clowns, CBB, and foxface. I corrected the problem and saved the large lawnmower. Damb! I have not killed a fish in years let alone this amount! Anyway Larry, I guess I am ready for the maroons now when we can work it out. I'll put them in there with a couple neon gobies and that will be it.

[Instar]

Oh crap Tim! So sorry to hear all this! How in the world did you get the acro crabs to come out of the corals???

I'm going to be busy till after Easter with rehersals. Maybe after that's finished I can bring the clowns to you the weekend after or next?

[Jimnorris]

Third and fianl treatment completed! All looking good! This time I did loose most of my acro crabs??????
Jim

[Instar]

My third is done too. It took a whole day for the scarlet reef hermits that are left to start moving around a little. Haven't seen the sponge crab or blue leggs yet. Pods are in great shape. One bright pink damicornis bleached some this time. The good part is the colors are starting to revive, RTN is almost stopped completely, some corals and softies are growing and there are polyps on corals that were heavily infected where there never was polyps before. It looks like the complete sps crash has been averted. A little hitchhiker goniopora did not like all the water changes and carbon as it went from growing to loosing polyps. Things are a little out of balance without all the crabs and mysis, but, improving daily. Fish are all very healthy and hungry.

[Bigreefer]

Don't beat yourself too much Tim, It happens in the big pond too.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1530&e=2&u=/afp/20040329/wl_asia_afp/environment_un_skorea_040329050449

[Tim Marvin]

No, I took OUT the acro crabs! Toasted them....LOL......Oh well, I kinda liked them too...
Bigreefer, sad article. Fortunately the corals are not effected by the 02 drop or I'd have a huge mess. This tank is overloaded. I guess I'll have to buy another....

[Tim Marvin]

Well, I put in some new fish. 2 firefish, 1 tiny CBB, 1 tiny coral beauty, 1 bicolored blenny, and my favorite 1 Hawaiian cleaner wrasse.

[Instar]

All 3 treatments are done. Its good to be bug free. Colors are returning, polyps are also returning. It no longer looks as if the entire tank is setup for an sps crash. I have lots of long flowing polyps on the grand orange stag now. It never had polyps till now. Perhaps that was the carrier in my tank.

In the post mortum, lost all acro crabs, all 100 micro blue leg hermits, all mysis shrimp, at least one of 2 baby scallops, and a couple tiny oysters.

Good things in addition to colors and polyps; 2 scarlet reef hermits survived in addition to the horrid looking sponge/decorator crab that eats algae. Coralline algae is growing like crazy, including some branching coralline. Pods of different species are healthy and the population is increasing. Zebra brittle stars have grown a lot, and where there were 3 orange ridcordia, there are now 9. Egg clusters have increased in size and numbers about 25% for fish and benthic animals. Leathers, xenia, corals, polyps almost all have visible growth. Snails did not seem to be affected by the treatment.

Best part is in the picture - NO red acro bugs at all!

[Tim Marvin]

bump

[Tim Marvin]

...

[BIGBIRD123]

Could this be why I lost several colonies and about 10 frags overnight?

[Tim Marvin]

No, that would be RTN this takes time to hurt the acropora, and some acropora are not affected at all like the green slimer.

[BIGBIRD123]

I was just wondering because I never found a reason for the MASS RTN. I have never seen any mites but then I really didn't know what to look for. At the time, all parameters were normal or at desired limits.

[Someone]

What would be a good dip to use on all corals before you put them in the tank?

[TexasTodd]

FWIW I think many people see more positive results from the "red bug treatment process" than from purely getting rid of the bugs.

All those water changes spaced out are doing good things..........ie the coraline algae firing up after treatment and non sps items doing better. You are significantly removing other bad stuff.

TT

[GaryP]

As well as rebalancing your ionic balance if you are using 2 part. I do a series of major water changes a couple times a year to accomplish this because of my heavy 2 part use.