Everything is foreign to me

[MikeDeL]

I have never set-up a saltwater tank and everything just seems so foriegn to me. JimNorris reffered me here to help get me off to a good start. I am wanting to start a small tank with a pair of small fish. Maybe clowns or damsels, but I am open to suggestions. I know small tanks are harder to keep but I am limited to space since I live an apartment and this is going to be my fourth tank. Im up to the challenge and am very detail oriented. I saw the Nano-Cube on DrsFoster&Smith and thought that might be a good choice to start with. It comes with a 3 stage wet/dry filter, 24w compact flouresent light, and a 106 gallon pump. I was thinking of buying this along with a heater, live sand, and some live rock, setting it all up and letting it sit for a few months while I do a bunch of research. After that I will add a fish or 2, then after I start getting the hang of things I might ease into the corals, if fund permit it. Is there anything else yall think I might need to get started? Are there any books that would make for good reading while I am waiting for my live rock to cure. Any help and suggestions while be greatly appriciated.

Thanks,
Mike

[malofish]

If you decide to go with a nano you need to check out www.nanoreefs.com great tanks and alot of help.

[matt]

Mike;

WELCOME! to maast. You'll get all sorts of advice and moral support here. As far as the tank you're thinking of, I'm not too familiar with it. In general though, wet/dry filters are not highly thought of for reef tanks; tanks that run them tend to accumulate nitrate, which the invertibrate animals living on reefs cannot tolerate. I'd first suggest a book called "The coral reef aquarium" by Ron Shimek. It's a small book that's perfect for beginning (and not so beginning) reefkeepers.

Once you've read that book, probably you'll start thinking about a bigger tank. A good one to start with might be 24" by 12", maybe they're called 20 long. It's a good shape for a small tank, and lighting can be done with a single 55W PC fixture, readily available. After some time, if you get into keeping more light demanding animals, you can easily add another 55W fixture. Although this tank is still considered too small to be appropriate for a beginner, it's a much better choice than a tiny nano-reef. You can find a used bakpak or prizm skimmer for a hang on filter, and a couple of powerheads for circulation. Simple and inexpensive. As it matures, this tank would be fine for a pair of oscellaris or percula clowns, some live rock, and whatever kinds of corals you'd like to try your hand at, depending on the light.

Have fun!

[dan]

i agree with matt. do something bigger than a nano. there are people in maast that probably have a 20 to 55gal that are looking to sell at a resonable price. by the way glad to have you on masst. :-D

[MikeP]

Youc an do well with a smaller tank but you need to be judicious about low bioload. This means very few or no fish.

I own a nanocube and would not reccomend it as a first tank. You would be better served buying a 10 gallon or 20 gallon tank and starting from there. What you will have to decide on is what you ultimately want to keep in the tank and then research that species requirements accordingly. Like you said a tank with a couple of damsels or clowsn would probably do ok but this is partly due to the forgiving nature of both of these fish. Going with a standard size tank may not look as clean or all in one but trust me it is sooooo much easier to find things that will fit and much less hassle to retrofit.

While you can get the nano cube cheaply it has several glaring design flaws IMO particularly the poorly designed filter area and the water return - these conspire to provide little surface agitation for the water and the result is stagnant flow unless you do some modding. You can check some of the threads at www.nanoreef.com on how people have addressed these issues - I still say it's junk - mine the ballast also died within the first week and the pump was always noisy and anemic and I had to replace it in short order.

[reefguy]

First off, welcome! I know a few people that have that same nano tank that you're talking about that would agree with Mike. I've got a 20 gallon tank/stand/canopy that I'll sell if I get my hex that I want. Let me know if you are interested.

[manny]

Mike, I live in a small apartment and have a 30 gallon set up. Pretty good size for a beginner if you ask me. Not too big, not too little. Filtration is pretty easy with a couple powerheads and some live rock. To keep detritus from accumulating I have a couple stars, one brittle, the other a serpent and a bunch of snails (nassarius, cerith, astrea, conch). Fish only tanks are alot easier to take care of than a reef tank since you don't have to worry so much about calcium levels and alkalinity levels so much. Plus alot of other stuff sometimes. One good tip is to make sure and buy accurate testing kits. Salifert would probly be your best bet. Also, buying used stuff from somewhere such as here or reefcentral is probly what you're gonna want to do. Cause trust me, after you've bought one thing, you're eventually gonna wanna try somethin else that is "better". So buying stuff used at first and then later on if you wanna sell it you won't lose so much money. Another good tip is for lighting. Later on when you get into corals and such you should build a canopy and then buy a retrofit kit. That way, you can start off with whatever kind of lighting you want (T5, powercompact, VHO) etc., then later on you can upgrade to something like metal halide or whatever new type of high-tech fixture is out then. This is ALOT less expensive than buying one of those ready-lit hoods and is easily upgradeable. With a canopy you'll also be able to hide alot of stuff such as moonlights, plumbing, etc. Hope this helps.

[manny]

Oh yeah, and welcome Mike!

[Jimnorris]

Mike,
Yes you are in very good hands here!
Jim

[StephenA]

My son has a 10Gal Nano, and I have a 72Gal Bow Front. The 72 is much more stable and easier to take care of. Go with as big as you can afford. Try to get something with a sump!

[Medinafish]

Welcome. Some really good advice here and you will find that there are many ways to "skin this cat". Matt's recommendation to do some reading is a good one. I believe that the recommendation to try a little larger tank is also well founded. More people leave this hobby (obsession) because they don't do a little research and prepare themselves and then have difficulties. You're off to a good start. Lots of information out there. You might look at Bob Fenner's "Conscientious Marine Aquarist" as well. Also try www.wetwebmedia.com for good information and exchange of ideas. Both Fenner and Anthony Calfo (Book of Coral Propagation) respond on that site. Good luck and have fun.

[rwilliams26]

Mike,

Sent you a PM. :grin:

[MikeDeL]

I am fully aware that a larger tank is much easier to maintain, and believe I would love a large set-up. This is going to be my 4th tank though, I already have a 55 gallon a 5 gallon and a ten gallon. Unless you guys can talk my fiance into selling the couch, which then I wouldnt have any place to sleep when she gets mad at me, so I can make room for another tank, the only space I have available for one is on the empty space on the stand my 10 gallon is on. I built the stand to hold 2 10 gallon tanks side, it is 42"x19", so with one ten gallon there already there is only a 20"x18" space left to work with. Who knows maybe I hit the mega millions tonight and I can rent out the apartment next door to me too.LOL. I know having a smaller tank will keep me more occupied with maitence and the likes which I feel is ok since I enjoy it anyway and I need things to keep me occupied all the time. I am more then ready for the challange and I have always done my best when I am being challenge.
I would like to thank everyone for being so friendly and helpful so far. I got my tax return today so I will probably spend the better part of the weekend running all over the place shopping around. So what are some good SW stores in Austin that would be worth my while checking out? Also does anyone know of somewhere I can get live rock for less then 8 bucks a pound?? Im gonna end up spending half my money on live rock almost. Im going to be out tomorrow looking for the bare bones; tank, filter, heater, live sand, salt mix, hydrometer, and test kit. Any suggestions on brands and models would be appriciated. Also since it is such a small tank what you yall think about having 2 heaters in the tank? Would this help keep the temp more stable? or maybe instead of 1 50w heater having 2 25w heaters. I was thinking of doing this on my 10 gallon FW. Lately the heater has been working overtime at night since it has been so cold.


Thanks for all the help so far,
Mike

[StephenA]

In Austin I'd go to AquaTek and Austin Aquariums. I think AquaTek had some base rock for 5.99lb already cured. I had them order me some uncured Fiji and it was 5.99lb.

[Tim Marvin]

If you can wait until I get back off vacation I'll get LR for you for $3.65 a lbs. Walt Smith Premium Fiji. I can spare about 10 lbs if you come and get it today. Otherwise I will be gone on vaction all of next week. I also can drag up some really old live sand if you need 10-20 lbs.

[StephenA]

Get the Fiji, Much better. Most LFS have just plain white base rock.

[Tim Marvin]

This is Walt Smith Premium Fiji. The best grade they have. The Walt Smith Aquacultured is very nice this time of year also.

[MikeDeL]

Thanks Tim, I am gonna have to take you up on your offer. So my question for set up.

Should I put the live sand in the tank, with the live rock, then mix some salt water and fill it?

Should I put the live sand and water in and wait a week to add the live rock?

Also when I fill the tank should I use room tempurature water to fill it up then turn the heater on or should I warm the water from the tap and add it to the tank?

Thanks,
Mike

[StephenA]

I put the water in first(with the heater), then the sand then the rock. It will settle in a day or 2. If you do it this way don't fill the tank to the top with water, it will over flow! Put the bags of sand in the tank then cut them open in the water. Then arrange your rock. You want the water to be at the correct temp and sal to help keep the sand alive.

[Tim Marvin]

I'd put in the sand, place a pan in the bottom and dump the water in. This will keep the water from spashing all the sand up. Then fill half way, add the rock and top off the water. This is all old cured stuff and you can put in your heater and start adding some life in a day or two once you stabilize the temp. IMO.

[reefguy]

Make sure you buy RO water from the store also! Its only like 25 cents a gallon at Aqua Tek and well worth it. Don't use tap water!

[MikeDeL]

Thanks. I either going to go out today and buy my equipment A set it up tomorrow(forgot today was valentines day, so that is gonna have to come first otherwise the misses is gonna get mad) or I am goinging order everything online. I have to do some comparative shopping. So why is tap water bad?

Thanks,
Mike

[ebayes11]

Tim, where are you located, and when do you get back from vacation? I might be interested in some of that rock as well.

Thanks,

Eric

[matt]

Don't use tap water. Get R.O./D.I. water.

[matt]

So why is tap water bad?

Thanks,
Mike

Mike, you should really get that Shimek book before getting too much further along. Don't mean to be a nag, but your question indicates you should do some more research. Tap water has all sorts of things in it that will kill marine organisms and leave you with an algae factory.

[MikeDeL]

Well I went out and bought the book The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner. I started reading it last night and Im about a hundred pages into it. I was planning on setting up the aquarium so I could let the live rock cure while I researched more.

Thanks,
Mike

[StephenA]

I'd reconsider ordering everything online. The online guys can't give you help or advise like one the local stores. You happen to live in an area that has several good stores! Their prices are usually within line with what's online. You will also need them in the future for other items. More reading would be great. I read "The New Marine Aquarium" by Michael Peletta. I also did a lot of online research. I blew about a week reading and looking before I setup my tank. I visited 4 stores in the Austin Area to gather info too. Most have no problem sitting down and helping. The 2 mentioned in this thread are the best at helping people get started.

[MikeDeL]

So where is Austin Aquariums at?

Thanks,
Mike

[StephenA]

It's in behind the Northcross Mall on Northcross Dr (corner of Burnet and Andersen Lane) Aquatek is just North of them on Burnet. I'd go to both and ask ????

[Medinafish]

See what I mean? More than one way to skin this cat. I put the rock in first, then the sand and then the water using a tube to let it run down the side of the tank rather than directly on the sand. You cover a couple of inches of liverock this way but you don't have to worry about burrowing critters and fish nor anerobic areas in your substrate. Regardless, its all good - and you will get some cloudy water for a couple of days.

[StephenA]

Books to consider:
For clams see Giant Clams by Daniel Knop
For Coral see Aquarium Corals by Eric Borneman
For Inverts see Reef Invertebrates by Anthony Calfo & Robert Fenner
For Fish see Marine Fishes by Scott Michael

I have found the these books to be good at finding specialized information. I also ask online and at the local stores for comparison. One thing you will find is that there are many ways to do something. Watch out on some of the Reef Forums for 10 year kids giving advise. You can always find someone to back up what you want, even if it is bad advise. I was looking for a peaceful trigger for my reef tank. I had 6 people tell me to put a Clown Trigger in my reef tank! Four of them had pics of one in their tank, they were all very small. When those Clown Triggers grow up they will have plenty to eat in those reef tanks.

Good Luck!

[MikeDeL]

Well I took the financial plunge. I have got just about everything I need to get started. I just have to make sure to hide the reciept from my fiance. Here is what I've got so far.

Nano-Cube
Thirty pounds live sand (probably wont need that much. anyone want some?)
Instant Ocean Salt mix
Hydrometer
test kit
Protien skimmer
2 50 watt heaters (wasnt sure if I should 1 or have 2 so I would have a back up)
Rena Air air pump
gang valve and check valve

Im stopping by Aquateck tomorrow at lunch to get jugs and water. Anything else I need to pick up while I am there?


Thanks,
Mike

[MikeDeL]

I know its not saltwater, but I was wondering if I could post a couple pictures of my freshwater tank so I can show yall what I have accomplished so far? I see everyone sharing their pictures and since I dont have any saltwater pictures yet I was wondering if this would be ok.


Thanks,
Mike

[MikeDeL]

Can anyone recommend some good starter fish for me? Im thinking about gobbies and clowns but what else should I start reading about in the meantime?


Thanks,
Mike

[technomex]

Don't get damsels. They are the devil. Most people use them to cycle their tanks, then have to find some sucker to take them off their hands. Try a few green chromis at first. Resist the temptation to buy a ton of fish at once.

[matt]

Mike;

Sorry to see you have not followed the advice of several experienced people on this forum and gone for a larger tank than the nano-cube. Once again, I'll suggest the Shimek book as a first book.

Good luck to you!

[MikeDeL]

I didnt mean to ruffle any feathers by not taking yall advice and getting a larger tank. I understand the advice given for having a larger tank. I took all of yall thought in to consideration, along with several other factors. In the end I decided that this would the best choice at this point in time. I decided that if I know going into this that since the water parameters change easier in a small tank I would stay much more on top of testing and monitoring my water conditions. If I had any doubts about whether or not I would be able to do this I wouldnt. If it is of any comfort I while not be keeping any corals for quite some time. For now it is just going to be a FOWLR.


Thanks for all the help so far,
Mike

[Medinafish]

Mike,

Please don't cycle your tank with damsels or any other sacrificial lambs - a waste of natural resources IMHO. A piece of uncooked shrimp from HEB will work as well. Good luck.

[kaiser]

Mike,
what did You buy the air pump for?
Take the shrimp from HEB to cycle the tank put it on a plate and set it out in the sun. When it starts smelling good throw it in the tank. I also used "Cycle" by Nutrafin in the past to help things along.

[MikeDeL]

I bought the air pump to run the protien skimmer I bought. It is a lees protien skimmer. I know its not the best one out there, but its better then nothing. I found instructions for a modifacation to fit it that seems easy enough. I wasnt planning on damsel to cycle the tank. I have some cycle and I will try that to help things along. Id try the shrimp too but I know my dogs will do their best to try and eat it.


Thanks,
Mike

[DeletedAccount]

A nano is fine if you are dedicated. And if you want to post your FW shots we would love to see them!

If you have some live rock in there the dead shrimp is not needed. The tank will cycle with out adding outside things. A pair of percula or ocellaris clowns are great fish to add after the cycle is over. They are pretty hardy and are very interesting to watch. These are really the only two that will like the nano as far as clowns go. I am also a great fan or goby/prawn pairs in nanos. BUT you need to wait until the tank is fairly well established so that the pod population is high enough to help support them. I personally LOVE Micheal Scott's pocket fish guide (any one know the proper name of the book?). It is very realistic about size requirements for the fish, feeding, and possible future problems. This is a great, inexpensive book to keep handy. I find mine esp. useful in the glove box of my truck for researching before the "impulse" buy!

Good luck! I would love to see pictures of this set up and the FW!

[reefguy]

That Lee's skimmer is a waste of money! Return it and the air pump! DerekB is selling a BakPak skimmer for $40! Thats not much more for a skimmer that would be a heck of a lot better for not that much more.

[MikeDeL]

well here are a few of my freshwater pics.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid104/pa22d85adb2bb5a5e340907fc7f3979bc/f997a572.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid104/p64061fca7010b142f2b24e69d4f3a2df/f997a56d.jpg

I also wanted to thank yall for suggesting Austin Aquariums to me. I went in yesterday and was vary impressed. The guy I talked to took the time to have a conversation with me about what I was going to do and what my some of my options would be. Thanks.

Mike

[StephenA]

Nice FW Tanks

[MikeDeL]

For my substrate, should I use live sand exclusively or should I mix some crushed coral in with it? By the way I am probably gonna have more then I know what to do with. Its a 30lbs bag so if anyone needs any let me know. I think Im probably going to end up with a pair of gobys maybe. I was also interested in the flasher wrasses. Does anyone know who might have these in town? I flipped through the Pocket Guide of Marine FIshes and came with a list of possable fish.

Assessor
Blue
Yellow
Jawfish
Yellow head
Gold Spec
Banggai Cardinal
Flasher Wrasses
Carpenter
Lyretail/Angular
Dot and Dash
McCosters
Yellowfin
Blenny
Red Sea Mimic
Gobys
Yellow Clown
Randall Shrimp
Sharknose/Cleaner
Neon
Black Ray
White Ray
Fire Fish
Sixline
Royal

[MikeDeL]

How far down from the top of the tank do those BakPak skimmer hang?


Thanks,
Mike

[MikeDeL]

Nice FW Tanks

Thanks, I have really enjoyed putting it to together. Im glad to hear my efforts are worth it.

Thanks,
Mike

[MikeDeL]

So what do you guys use to raise the pH of the water when you use RO/DI water? I was also tossing around the idea of aclimating some Molly to saltwater to practice on for the first few months. Would this be a good idea? Also how much circulation should I have in this tank? Will 106 g/h be enough or should I get the 156 g/h pump from the fish store?


Thanks,
Mike

[OldSalty]

Hey, Ive got a 20 gallon long with a eclipse 3 hood on it. It was my first reef. I'll sell it for $75 if your interested. Just pm me anytime

Kelly :grin: