Making huge fuge/sump need some advice

[wkopplin]

I am converting a 180 tank into a sump/fuge for my 215 that I am setting up. Return pump will be an Iwaki 70RLT feeding into a SCWD and two sea swirls on the main tank. The tank will also have a closed loop system. The 180 will be in my garage while the tank will be in my living room. I am plumbing everything through the wall.

Here is a pic of what I am planning on. I might use a 55 gallon tank to drain the water from the tank into first before it goes to the 180 in order to have some mechanical filtration as well as a good location for the skimmer and other equipment.

I might also reverse the water flow through the 180 to achieve the same thing. Any ideas or suggestions would be most appreciated. The fuge will have a DSB.

Thanks!

[dan]

wkopplin, man i want to see that when you get it set up............please........ :-D :-D

[matt]

Blake;

If you're going to use the iwaki pump for flow, you're going to have too much flow through the fuge IMO. You also have no baffles/bubble trap set up, although the refugium area will help in that regard. One solution is to split up the drain from the tank, so that you can control the flow through the refugium. Also, if you're going to run a skimmer, you might want to arrange things so you can send the majority of your drain water to the skimmer, and a smaller portion to the fuge, bypassing the skimmer. Then both flows of water would drain into a return area. This way, you're not sending outflow from the refugium to the skimmer, and not sending skimmed water to the refugium.

Why don't you consider a smaller, non pressure return pump, and use the iwaki for a big skimmer? You'll definitely want to supplement flow in the tank either way; best way IMO would be through a closed loop with an ampmaster. This way, you'll have GREAT flow within the tank, less moving through the sump/refugium. This in turn helps with evaporation, is much quieter, and more energy efficient. A good choice for a return pump might be MD40rxt or equivilent; around 1000gph or a little less given the head and friction of a sump set up. Maybe 2500gph through the closed loop, and you still have your big pressure rated iwaki to run the monstro skimmer.

[wkopplin]

Matt,

I have an Iwaki set aside for the big skimmer we discussed. I think I am going to do that one. I have planned to put baffles in the fuge, just have not gotten around to putting them in the pic. I was thinking of draining the tank into my 55 or one of those big Rubbermaid containers like we discussed and skimming it from there. Then having that flow down into the 180. I have enough room to put them on separate levels so I can let gravity do the work there. That way I am not skimming the fuge water going back to the tank. I will reconsider the return pump and take a look at some other pump options. Let's go ahead on the monster skimmer. This thing will need it.

Thanks for the great suggestions!

[matt]

Oh, now I see. You have 2 of those big iwakis; wow. One thing is for sure, you'll have great stability and water quality control with a refugium this size. You're basically doubling your water volume. Nice.

[GaryP]

Do you have a place to park the tank truck for your water changes? J/K.

Gary

[wkopplin]

hehe. Water changes are going to be interesting. I came up with a new pic and will post it tomorrow.

[TexasState]

The water in your sump might become stagnant. You might want to redesign the movement of water flow from one baffle into the next.
For your size tank, I would ditch the Iwaki and use the AmpMaster 300 pump. In your drain compartment, you should include a cover to cut down the noise and salt spray [into the stand & wall.]

[matt]

The water in your sump might become stagnant. You might want to redesign the movement of water flow from one baffle into the next.
For your size tank, I would ditch the Iwaki and use the AmpMaster 300 pump. In your drain compartment, you should include a cover to cut down the noise and salt spray [into the stand & wall.]

I'm pretty sure that's exactly how he has it designed, from one divider to the next. I disagree about the ampmaster for a return pump; they have horrible pressure curves and then you'd be putting way too much flow through the refugium. They're perfect for a closed loop, where head pressure is zero. In fact, with the set up he's designing; plumbed through a wall, meaning fairly long lines, the iwaki rlt70 would probably end up pumping almost as much water as an ampmaster; they easily lose 40% or more of their flow when any significant pressure is put on them.

[TexasState]

Just my opinion that you don't need lot of water circulating through your sump. More circulation=more noise. I like to keep my tank cooler running as well.

[wkopplin]

The sump will be in the garage along with all of the filter equipment, so the noise is not a factor. Only my car will hear it. Iwaki's are noisy, but I am not concerned about it. Plumbing it through the wall will add about two feet of horizontal length to the pipes.

[Tim Marvin]

I don't think that pump will be too big in a refugium that size. I'd hook it up and try it out. Then change it if you need to.

[wkopplin]

Here is the new design incorporating the 55 as a sump and using the entire 180 as a fuge. This flows a little better. As always, looking for improvements, so if you have suggestions, they are most appreciated. The comments so far have been very helpful.

[matt]

Blake;

It looks really good. One tweak might be to make the final water return area in the 180 bigger. This is because this small area is where all the evaporation from the whole system will change the water level. From a system this size you could easily evaporate 10 gallons/day in the summer, I would think. If this area is really small, you increase the possibility of running it dry. If your auto top off set up will work on a float switch, this is where you want the float switch. There are guys making light (maybe laser, maybe infared) triggered float switches that are supposed to be extremely reliable. There's also a guy from the MACO class I took who's making high reliability switches, last I heard. I'm using one from McMaster-Carr that cost about $20; it's worked great for the 6 months it's been in use. All it does in my system is trigger a solenoid which alows flow through my R.O./D.I. unit. You can put screens around them to prevent the inevitable snail taking a nap on the thing and flooding your sump.

I'd also put 2 drains on the 55 leading nto the 180. One way down low, under your eggcrate for holding media/ carbon, whatever. The other one would be high up and act as a back up in case something clogs the primary drain. If you're going to have media there, it's probably a good idea.

[wkopplin]

Very good ideas. I was concerned about the location of the top off system. I was thinking about putting it in the 55 in case it gets jammed open, at least it would flow into the 180 before flooding, which would give me a little time to detect it. Is that OK or would you still put it in the 180 return area. I would shave off some space in the Pod section pretty easily.

The dual returns off the 55 are a very good idea. I will do that.

[matt]

You can put the output of the auto-top off in the 55, but if there's a float valve involved, it must be in the area just before your return pump. That's the only area that will drop with evaporation, because every other area must go over a dam of sorts. I guess it's possible that the final area in the 55 might fluctuate as well, but I'm not sure how exactly, because it's just draining at the bottom. Check out the huge thread "DIY auto top off with solenoid" on reefcentral. That thread discusses all sorts of stuff about float switches, reliability of auto top-offs, etc.

Here's what I think is the ultimate auto top-off set up. Two float switches, each capable of shutting off the system and one higher up to act as a back up shut-off, two solenoids which both must be open to allow flow; one before the filter, one after, and each solenoid on a decent electronic timer. This way, both solenoids AND both float switches would have to fail for your system to stick open. Under normal use, the timers open the solenoids for an amount of time which roughly matches your evaporation rate. The float switches act as a fail safe.

[wkopplin]

If I wanted to put the 180 above the main tank, which I could do on cinderblocks, what flow rate would you recommend through a fuge like this? I was thinking of putting a Mag 12 in the 55 sump and pumping the water up to the fueg and letting the fuge gravity drain into the tank. It would take a lot of cinderblocks, but I think I could do it.

The return pump would then be attached to the 55. Just a thought. It would certainly be easier to have it like I originally planned, but more pods and other critters would make it into the main tank if I elevated the 180.

[matt]

If I understand right, you'll have a loop between the 55 and your main tank, powered by the return pump. Then you'd pump water into the fuge from the sump, but drain that water back to the main tank? I don't know if it will work because you're pumping more water out of the sump than is flowing back in, at least initially. Maybe it would equalize; the main tank would drain the amount of the return pump plus the flow from the fuge into the sump, which would then be pumping out an equal amount. This is a question for someon who understands fluid mechanics. Maybe it's as simple as it sounds, but I would ask someone who really knows about this stuff, or at least do an experiment with a few tubs.

But, you'll have a pretty big return pump with a big impeller; my guess is that much of the larvae and micro-life from the fuge would get through it pretty well. One thing to consider in elevating the fuge is that you'd need some scaffolding or at least a step ladder to work on the thing! Maybe stilts?

[wkopplin]

I was thinking about that one. Might be better off leaving it in line with the sump. Don't like working on stilts. That thing would be WAY up there. Not to mention, it would be one less hole in the wall, which would make my wife happy. Well, she doesn't really know about the holes I am already planning, so I guess one more will not really matter......

[prof]

Eliminate the pod/refuge/growout from the large tank and move it to the 55g. It would be alot easier to elevate the 55g above the tank. Be aware that the flow from above the main tank would create some bubbles. I am still looking for a good way to cut down on the microbubbles in my secondary tanks. See my gallery.

Oh, yeah, a 180 is too big. You need a 150. Did you see my PM?

[dan]

NO!NO! keep it in the 180. i have a 40 gal. fuge and it's to small. wish i had a 100 gal. the 40 drains in top of main tank on a higher stand. that way all my critters come in alive. and boy they do come in!

[wkopplin]

Construction starts this weekend on the project. I need to get the 180 drilled, but the wall to seal in my fish room will begin construction as will the plumbing to run a sink off the input hose to my water softener. Electricians are coming out to install 4 GFI's and 8 regular sockets in the wall to provide plenty of power to the tank. Everything will be in the fish room, including the light ballasts.

As far as the returns go, I am wanting to use two 3/4" sea swirls, but might upgrade to 1". Can a SCWD be used with those?

[matt]

Blake;

Here's the thing about using sqwd and sea swirls together. Sea swirls are rated for a given flow. If you're using the sqwd to alternate between the 2 sea swirls, you can only push the rated flow for one sea swirl to the pair. Like, let's say each sea swirl is rated for 1000gph, without the sqwd you could drive them both with a 2000 gph pump, getting a really good flow through each sea swirl. If you use a sqwd, you can only use a 1000 gph pump for the same pair. My suggestion is to push as much as you can through the sea swirls and set up the sqwd on another pair of return nozzles. I also suggest the 1" sea swirls for a big tank; they can handle a lot more flow and they don't cost much extra.

I really like my sea swirls, even though I hated paying for them. I think they're overpriced and there is a big thread on making them yourself; it got censored due to patent issues, but maybe you can find it. Now that they'rre in my tank, though, I have to say they REALLY improve the character of the water movement. Probably the best scenario for you would be to consider making a big surge device that you could keep in the garage. That would be somewhat of a challenge to get together, but you'd have unbelievable flow in the tank. You could keep many corals that won't survive or grow well in most aquariums because they need surging flow.

Boy, it's fun making these suggestions; I can dream about the set up but don't have to deal with the cost or hassle in making it a reality!

[wkopplin]

Matt,

As always, thanks for the help. Anytime you want to come over and observe the project, you are more than welcome. Oh yeah, can you pick up some pvc cement on the way..... hehe.

[TexasState]

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PA&Category_Cod e=Tunze_pumps

[wkopplin]

OK, one more question concerning this setup.

Should I hook the return pump to the sump and split a line off of it to the fuge and then have it gravity drain back into the sump?

If I do that, I would not have to put glass baffles in the 180 at all. I would also only have to get one hole drilled. I like this idea. It would also allow me to use the full 180 gallons for the fuge rather than wasting space worrying about baffles and bubble traps.

I would the build the bubble traps into the 55 gallon tank or have a pretty large sump built.

[TexasState]

Normally, you would want the refugium in the last stage. That way, you don't skim out the good live stuff growing from the refugium. You don't need to put a skimmer in sump, you can hook it up externally. Take a look at this picture as just an example of how a skimmer can be hook up externally.
http://www.lifereef.com/cdlf1-3.gif
You can use a u-tube instead of drilling the bottom of the tank. You will lose GPH if you use plumb the U-tube instead of drilling.
You will want to put a baffle in the return area of your refugium to prevent the macro algae from clogging up your return (pump or gravity flow.)

[wkopplin]

The skimmer will be external. If I put the gravity drain from the fuge directly into the compartment with the return pump, it would bypass the skimmer alltogether.. Since I am branching off the return pump to get water to the fuge anyway, it has already been skimmed. The major downside I see is that I would be sending plankton rich fuge water from the fuge to the sump and then split between the fuge and tank again so not all of the fuge water is making it back into the tank. I can live with that though. The basic setup will still be easier to build, plumb and maintain.

That diagram did give me a good idea for the system pump. Thanks for that.

[TexasState]

That picture didn't show the relationship, but you will want to give the skimmer it own dedicated pump. So, one pump for the skimmer, one pump for the return.

[wkopplin]

That is how we are designing it. Matt is building my skimmer and we are using an Iwaki 70RLT to power just the skimmer. I have a monster Dolphin Aqua Sea 5200 for the return pump. The Dolphin puts out quite a bit more water than the tank will be able to drain, so I have no problem splicing off the main return line for the fuge and my propagation tanks. I will try to draw a pic of the whole system later today. I think I have it more or less figured out.

I do like the idea in the pic above of having a four way tee off the main pump with one being an "auxilliary line" in case I want to add a chiller later down the road. That is a good idea.