Artifical Salt

[GaryP]

Somewhere in a previous thread there was a discussion about how many artifical salts are made by the same company. I recently changed to Red Sea based on advice from a LFS owner that I had a great deal of respect for in New Orleans. Someone said thay thought that Red Sea was made by the same company that made Kent and Instant Ocean. I did some research on this and found that Red Sea is not quite artificial, but rather is evaporated Red Sea water that has had some supplements added to it.

Here is the link that I found:

http://www.redseafish.com/Product.asp?Dir=y&catID=-1&subID=28&proID=190

Gary

[matt]

Interesting; I wonder why they add minerals if the salt is made by evaporation? I'd have a look at Ron Shimek's article on salt mixes in reefkeeping mag, called something like "A bad beginning: the toxicity of some aquarium salt mixes..." or something like that. That article was primarily responsible for the controversial switch that many reefkeepers made, including myself, from I.O. to Crystal Seas Marine mix bio-assay formula.

[Tim Marvin]

That link leads to Red Sea's web site, of course they think it is good. They are trying to profit from it.

[GaryP]

Matt,

They probably add carbonate/bicarbonate. They are not stable when evaporated and partially flash off as CO2.

Tim,

Yes, I went to Red Sea's website to see if I could find any info on the source of their salt. I was actually hoping to find some analytical info on their salt. Info on Red Sea wasn't included in Ron Shimek's article. That's why I was trying to find more info. Of course I would like to see some 3rd party data if it was available. As I said, I was told by someone that it might be made by Instant Ocean. That's what I really wanted to find out. I'd be very interested in trying the bio-assay formula but have heard it may be incompatible with other formulas.

Gary

[Tim Marvin]

I've probably tried almost every salt out there and I am back to IO and Kent. The only difference I could tell between these and the expensive brands is the price tag. I was going to try some Catalina Water Company sea water, but after consulting with a good friend of mine that has tried it, and is an expert aquarist, I decided against it. Austin Aquariums carries Fritz salt which is comparable to Bio-assay

[GaryP]

I don't think there is a major price difference between IO and Red Sea. I think I'm paying about $45-50 for the 200 gal. bucket here in SA.

Gary

[Tim Marvin]

I agree.

[GaryP]

As good as the Catlaina water sounds, I just got out of having to go buy water every week or two when I bought my RO unit. I hate the idea of going back to that. Besides, there is a cost issue involved.

Gary

[Instar]

The difference is in the buffer and trace balance. IO and HW Marinemix are the ones that have the same buffer balance as sea water and the same concentration of major elements as sea water according to the chemical analysis. All the others are off from a little to a lot. All of them have 100 times the trace element concentration as sea water, but, again, these two have the same balance as sea water. The others are off from a little to way off. Freshly mixed IO smells like a crashing wave on the beach and its blue when put into a white bucket. The others don't smell like that or look like that from what I've seen. Most I am not rich enough to try cause I don't want to risk my livestock. Of course there is always a nay sayer or someone who mixed things up wrong that wrote an article somewhere that gets everyone going off on something else. There's a lot of money in doing that too, so react and change brands with caution.
Like the saying goes, thats my 2 cents worth.

[GaryP]

Are you sure that the blue isn't from copper? J/K.....

Gary

[Instar]

You mean I shouldn't stir it with that gold colored bar? :)

[matt]

Crystal Sea bio-assay is cheaper than I.O. That's the sole reason that Dr. Mac switched to it; coincidentally around the time when Shimek's article came out and lots of people switched. As far as evaluating the benefit of these different salts with regards to the metal concentrations, I think you'd have to use one for several years to really tell. This is because Shimek's assertion is that I.O. has an elevated level of trace metals, which build up in a system over time and cause mortality in invertebrate larvae. This, if true, would cause a DSB to stop functioning or at least not function as well.

To try a salt for, say, several months, and then say this one is better, etc... probably is missing the point. Certainly you could say "I like such and such about this salt or that" but I don't think you could really tell if Shimek's assertions are true until the system has been running for a long time. But, I would say since I switched to bio-assay I have noticed an apparent increase in mysid shrimp and amphipods in my refugium, but it's just an observation. It definitely mixes to a higher ph for me than I.O. did, though, and I like the smell. To me, I.O. has kind of a "chlorine" smell to it when mixed, but bio-assay has a much milder smell. As far as the compatibility issue goes, there was maybe the longest thread on R.C. ever on this topic, like several hundred postings and all kinds of theories and assertions. The most plausible one, if I remember right, was that the interaction of I.O. and bio-assay caused a release of copper (from the I.O.) due to weakening the chemical bond that keeps the copper in I.O. from entering the water as a toxic ion.

[Instar]

Its interesting that he wrote about both toxic trace metals and another article about the build up of toxic waste by-products over the first 2 years in a tank and says that the build up of the waste by products of feeding the reef is responsible for deaths of organisms between the 2 and 4 year mark of a tank. So the source of toxic build up is then, considering the two opposite sources in his articles, what? Unknown?

[GaryP]

I know that Joshua switched to Bioassay and his water clouded up as a result. Correct me if I'm wrong here Joshua. Matt, I haven't seen the RC thread on this topic. Can you point me in the right direction? Copper wouldn't cause the water to cloud up.

Gary

[Instar]

I can't even imagine a tank with more in it than what is in mine with IO. You should see it in the moonlights. All kinds of shrimp paddling and flipping in there. Its amazing. Thousands of tiny brittle stars, lots of pods and gamarus shrimp. Even spontaneous generation of two little tubastreas on the aragonite base rock. But, there are bound to be differences in techniques and feedings between all of us that 'see' a difference between brands. It would take many quatitative measures from different systems to brand one better than the other for micro critters and corals.

[GaryP]

Larry, I agree. We don't manage our tanks like a scientific experiment. There are to many other variables to consider. In my case I used IO for years but I was going through the learning curve at the time and had so many other problems that I couldn't tell good from bad. I'm still slowly changing things and when I get to the point where I think my tanks are once again stable and can do a decent evaluation I will try IO again. In your case you are probably doing so many other things right that maybe you would never notice the advantages of one salt over another. How do you account for your success with IO when Shimek's data suggests that the heavy metals in it are toxic to larva? I realize that sometimes we just have to go with our gut feeling and experience in our product preferences.

I've learned a lot from hanging around with you guys and are trying to implement a lot of the things I have learned.

Gary