Beware of the 24" ECO-TYPE REFUGIUM WET DRY SUMP on EBA

[kaiser]

I went ahead and bought one of these on Ebay sold by usa_aquarium. Well it came in today and I was in for a suprise. Instead of a fuge I got a bunch of parts some glue and instructions. I knew that it would not come with the Light, Bioballs or the sponge in the picture, but I did expect for it to be assembled.
Just look at these pictures

[kaiser]

he has not answered his mail yet. I guess I need to give him some time.

[Henry]

I remember looking at these as well as the hang-on tank 'fuges and didn't buy because I would have to assemble. Good luck


Henry

[z28pwr]

That bites.

Did he specify that assembly was required in the auction.

[kaiser]

There was nothing in the discription that said anything about this being a kit or need to be assembled. This is the discription




24" ECO-TYPE REFUGIUM WET DRY SUMP



· 24"L x 12"W x 12"H

· brand new in box

· 1/4" acrylic walls with dual bulkheads (intake + return)

· MADE IN USA

· no tools required

· can be used with internal or external pump

· easy assembly - step by step 1,2,3

· picture instructions included

· place the baffles anywhere you want them

· UPS ground shipping USA only

· Save Tons of $ $ $ $ $

· IT'S FAST, IT IS SIMPLE, IT WORKS !!

· We believe honesty is the best policy

· Pease follow payment instructions carefully

· Paypal, BidPay, Money Order, Cashiers Check

Bio balls, filter sponge,and light fixture not inluded. You can place your baffles where you need them for special filtration equipment and location of (pumps, filters, eggcrate, etc). Please review our feedback and bid with confidence. Please carefully follow payment instructions. We are committed to giving excellent customer service. We promise to do our best to make this one of the best auction experiences you have here on eBay. To help us do this, please make sure you let us know if there is anything we can do to assist you. We always like to hear from you once you receive your item. And if there are ever any problems you experience with this auction, please let us know right away and give us the opportunity to fix it for you. RETURNS: We do accept returns for a valid reason, but please contact us first. If your merchandise is damaged in shipment we will follow the insurance claim procedure. We have not had to do this once though! Feedback ?????????????? We post feedback for every transaction. If payment is received promptly you will receive positive feedback. If we have forgotten to post positive feedback for you, please let me know and we will correct that immediately. You can contact us via e-mail at: usa_aquarium@yahoo.com Please e-mail us before posting any negative feedback as we always want to work out any problem you might have. We are very honest and reasonable people and our reputation is very important. YOUR ORDER WILL SHIP OUT THE SAME DAY YOUR PAYMENT ARRIVES!!! Terms of Auction: This is a "No-Excuses" Auction. Bidding on an auction is fun, but if you’re not 100% sure you want this item, do not bid. If you do not understand or are unclear about something please email us first and we will explain it to you. All questions must be asked before bidding, not after. Only bid if you are certain you want the item and have the financial means to complete the transaction. Deadbeats and bidders with recent negative feedback, your bids will be removed! William B. Heil continues his legacy by offering innovative products that have been made to our own higher standards with the finest materials and components. We believe these products offer exceptional quality and better value than the leading national brands at our always low prices. We think you will agree, or we will refund your money, no questions asked! Less shipping. We guarantee it. We manufacture all sizes of kits. Acrylic refugiums, sumps, and aquariums. Just email us the size you are interested in, and we will list it with the "buy it now option" here at Ebay.

[Nano_Steve]

hmm.....i checked out the page and it says it needs to be assembled.....i wonder if they added that after you purchased yours??? either way thats a bummer it turned out not to be exactly what u were hopin for.....btw how much did u pay for it? if ur truly dissappointed with it and want to sell it off i might be interested in getting it from you. :D

steve

edit: i just now saw ur post. it is understandable that the "easy assembly:1,2,3" doesn't exactly convey the message that this product needs to be COMPLETELY assembled....i would email the guys u bought it from and let them know that they need to make it more clear in their auction that this needs to be completely built.....

hope it helps, steve

[mathias]

· easy assembly - step by step 1,2,3

· picture instructions included



dead give away

[kaiser]

I was under the understanding that the baffles could be placed as needed. I was expecting to have to place the baffles add bioballs and sponge and install this to my tank, but not to build it from scratch.
If You want it I got $74.00 in this make me an offer.

[z28pwr]

Seems to me like he was honest:

· no tools required

· easy assembly - step by step 1,2,3

· picture instructions included

It would have been better if he put a before and after picture.

[Nano_Steve]

oops....didnt mean to post twice :oops:

[Nano_Steve]

hmmm.....74 bucks. its glass right? so all i would need is some......of that stuff(i completely forgot the name of the glass sealant!!!) or did it come with some??? id have to wait til i get back to take a look at it though....

steve

[Edit] SILICONE!!! it only took me two and half hours to remember the name......aw cmon, like yall have never had a brain fart before......pshaw

[kaiser]

it's acrylic and glue and syringe is included. I' ve got some extra glue that I would send with it.

[Nano_Steve]

oh......hmmm......now i see the concern. i havent the foggiest idea of how to do acrylic work. :? sorry bout that i totally thought it was glass for some reason. ill make a couple of calls when i get the chance, though, to see if anyone i know would like to get it from you.....in the mean time u might want to set it in the for sale/trade section on this site as well as over at reefcentral. or since they do say that accept returns go ahead and see what it would take for them to take it back, it was an honest situation of confusion and seeing as how it is acrylic im sure they will understand....

sorry again but good luck, steve

[z28pwr]

Surely you need some tools, you've gotta clamp that acrylic together while the glue dries.

I assume that's what the rubberbands are for .

[kaiser]

for the record, the seller is offering to take the Kit back. Now before I spend more money trying to return it I will offer this thing to anybody who wants it for $55.00.

[Henry]

Kaiser,
If you want to keep it, I sure someone here could help you put it together. I would do it for you, but I don't have the time or space to glue and set everything. There are a few ppl on this board that are pretty good with acylic. Just another option.


Henry

[kaiser]

Well about 3 weeks ago I went and spend about $80 on a bunch of acrylic and glued it all together, never got it to seal right. Yeah it's leaking like mad. Couldn't get it to seal not even using #16. After that disaster I am not even going to try. I'll just go and get me a 20 or 29 gal tank and silicone some baffles into that and call it the day.

[Richard]

Maybe the picture is decieving but...How much water reserve does that thing have before you start sucking air?

[Tim Marvin]

We could put it together at the meeting if you'd like. It is pretty simple to do, and a few member have some experience with acrylic.

[kaiser]

Dimensions 24 X 12 X 12

[Tim Marvin]

Hmmmm, about 20 gallons?

[manny]

Isn't it closer to 15 gallons?

[Tim Marvin]

Probably, I am just kinda picturing it in my head. Unfortunatley the product was not misrepresented, but we could use it as a teaching tool if anyone wants to buy it we can put it together at the meeting. The other option could be, if willing, raffle it off and the money collected can go to Kaiser up to $55 and any overage can go to the club. We could then put it together for the winner.

[matt]

Hey Kaiser;

If you end up keeping this sump kit and want some help putting it together, let me know. I'm real busy for the next couple of weeks, but I could probably spend a little time at least getting you started. Or, at least I could have a look at it and give you some very clear instructions, and inspect the parts to make sure they'll fit properly. If you had a leaky sump before and tried unsuccessfully to fix it with weldon #16, don't feel bad. That stuff is almost useless for that type of repair. For that you need weldon #40. I wouldn't give up on it if you like the final product; I'm sure I can get you straightened out on it. The only thing is, it's extruded acrylic, I can see the blue F on one of the pieces. That's Cyro FF, their extruded brand. You could use those pieces as templates for a nice cast acrylic refugium if you really like the design. (Then send it back; using the pieces as templates does not damage them in any way) Here's a hint; try taping the pieces together, at least the four outer walls, then set it on the bottom. If there's no overhang, i.e. if the bottom is not oversize, then you might have trouble getting a perfect joint between sides and bottom. The right way to do it is to cut the bottom oversize, set the sides/ends arrangement on it, glue, and flush trim off the excess on the bottom.

Richard makes a good point about the design. On my sump, the baffles are at the beginning of the flow, leading to a large area that the return bulkhead draws from. This is the part of the sump that the level will drop in due to evaporation. Also, remember that there is a direct inverse relationship between volume and water flow-through speed in different compartments of the sump. I like to get the water flowing fast through a few baffes, then end up in a nice big compartment where the flow is much slower before going to the return. I find this really cuts out the micro bubbles; they have time to float to the surface in the slower water. In the photo of the finsihed product, it looks like the sponge is there mostly to trap bubbles. Unfortunately, if you're going to use this as a refugium, it will also trap pods and any micro-life you wish to feed to the tank. Kind of defeats much of the purpose of a refugium.

PM me if you want some help. I'd tend to avoid a glass sump; a nicely built cast acrylic sump will last forever and you can machine for bulkheads, skimmer in-out, etc, easily.

Matt

[Tim Marvin]

What are the big draw backs with extruded? How long should this sump last if glued properly?

[TexasState]

Is the two bulkheads included? I'll buy it from Kaiser if Matt can use it as a teaching tool and put it together at the meeting. How long do you need to leave it alone to cure up?

[kaiser]

Well they call them bulkheads, but they are just some pieces of 1" Schedule 40. You see them in the pic in the middle.

[TexasState]

Is it already drilled on the side for the bulkhead? What kind of return pump would fit in there internally? Have open the box to check to see that there's no crack or damage to the acrylic from the shipping?

[kaiser]

Ok, so here is what I decided on this. I am not going to sell it, nor am I going to return it. I would like for it to be the topic of the next Meeting. I know about the voting, but hell that can't take that darn long and from what I 've seen there seems to be quiet a bit of interest on this subject. As far as the design is concerned I was send a bunch of pieces, but nobody says we have to use them all.

[matt]

Unless the parts are cut oversize for gluing, then flushtrim, I wouldn't use it to demonstrate sump construction. (Not that I'm qualified anyway) Tim, the problem with extruded is that it has about 10% of the molecular weight of cast, and consequently absorbs much more water on the molecular level. This makes it less stable under water pressure over a given period of time. Cyro has published a pamphlet on this. Here's a quote:

"CYRO recommends that all acrylic water vessels, including aquariums should be constructed with cell cast ACRYLITE® GP acrylic sheet. This requirement exists for two reasons:
ACRYLITE® GP sheet is more capable of withstanding continuous loads than continuously manufactured or extruded sheet.
ACRYLITE® GP sheet maintains a high level of mechanical strength after water absorption has reached equilibrium.
Cemented joints must withstand the effects of the continuous hydraulic pressure and the high level of water absorption for many years. Two-part polymerizable cements are recommended for this to meet this requirement. For proper cementing techniques see Tech Brief #1-Polymerizable Cement. Solvent cements are NOT recommended.
To determine what thickness acrylic sheet should be used, the calculation below can be used assuming the base is uniformly supported."


The thing about this that really caught me was the recommendation against solvent welding, which everyone does anyway. The best pro aquarium builders typically use better quality solvents than weldon #4, though, and their joints are perfect. What I'm going to do on my next sump, though, is use polymerizing cement (weldon #40) for the bottom joint, with a channel routed in the bottom to accept the sides/end. That should be pretty bombproof. But, the only way to do something like that is to cut the bottom oversize and flushtrim.

Now, for something this small, extruded would probably hold up just fine. And people use extruded for sumps all the time; the question is, how long will they last? I honestly don't know, but since I've been taught to use cast, and apparently it will last much longer