Carbon and powerfilter

[manny]

I have an Emperor powerfilter on my aquarium and leave the carbon cartridge in all the time. If I take it out my water gets all cloudy. I've read in a bunch of places that you're not supposed to use carbon in a reef aquarium but have also read that you should. (The more filtering, the better). What the heck? In or out??? Why?

[brewercm]

I leave mine in all the time. I've read both also , so no specific reason other than it's never bothered anything so far. I'm also running an emperor along with my sump but just use the media baskets for adding carbon.

[matt]

The idea that you should not use carbon is based on the thought that carbon will remove essential trace elements from the water. I have no idea iff this actually true, but many people have an opinion. Whether or not there's been a real study, that's a dfferent story. I personally kind of doubt that theres ever a shortage of elements in tank water; salt mix usually contains higher than NSW levels of metals, and fish food contributes more, etc....
In the initial days of "berlin" system reefkeeping, carbon was an integral part of the system.

Having said that, I almost never run carbon, but I have a big skimmer and a refugium and a DSB.

[Richard]

There's definitely plenty of debate on this subject. Personally, I run carbon for a week or so every few months. The fact that your water gets cloudy when you remove the the carbon indicates some type of problem to me. Are you using the Biowheels on your emporer? If not, your carbon cartridge maybe acting as your biomedia. Are you using a skimmer? If not, you may be experiencing a bacteria bloom do to the increase in organics when you pull out the carbon. There are many other possibilities but you should be able to pull out the carbon without having your tank go cloudy.

[manny]

Richard, I am using my biowheel on my emporer but currently do not have a skimmer. I'll be adding one tomorrow though. I have noticed that the cartridge is really really dirty when I pull it out. The blue filtereing sponge part has ALOT of stuff which looks like dirt to me. You think having the skimmer will help fix this?

[MikeP]

Some of the criticisms I have heard leveled but as yet not scientifically proven are:

- Carbon can take out many possibly beneficial trace elements if used too often.

- Carbon can build up and start to leach toxins back into water if not changed regularly.

- Carbon can become a nitrate factory if it's large grained and left in long enough.

- Carbon dust from activated charcoal has been implicated as a possible cause or aggravator in HLLE (Head and Lateral Line Erosion) in many fish.


Having said that I still run activated carbon almost all the time.

[matt]

It's true that carbon should not be left in for a long time; I've heard anywhere from 48 to 72 hours is about it for effectiveness. Interestingly enough, I just built a little canister to hold about 3 lbs (I guess, 1.87 liters) of carbon to run under pressure after I treat my tank for flatworms. So, I've read up a bit on it's use. It's much more effective if you force water through it under pressure; tossing a bag in the sump, even under your drain, won't do much.

Manny, the thing i noticed is that you're using a mechanical filter, the blue sponge, as well. That's definitely a no-no for a reef aquarium, because you're removing much of the suspended particles that filter feeders need to survive. Ocasional use is fine, but if you use it constantly, you'll be starving your tank.

Matt

[Richard]

In "The Reef Aquarium" By Delbeek & Sprung they recommend using carbon by placing it in the sump or some other area of low water flow so that water flow around it and is not forced through. The theory of this "passive flow technique" is that through diffusion the carbon will still adsorb/absorb organics and other yellowing compounds but will not result in the rapid depletion of trace elements.

Manny, adding a skimmer will not decrease the amount of detritus(the dirt stuff your seeing) by much. The skimmer will mostly remove proteins and other dissolved organics from your water. On my tanks I do not use any type of mechanical filtration (filter pads etc.). The idea here is to allow the detritus to settle within the aquarium and be broken down naturally and more slowly rather than always forcing water over it causing the undesirable compounds to be released more rapidly into your water. When I first started doing it this way I could see some detritus building up in areas of my tank but after a month or two it went away (broken down by critters I suppose). The "more filtering the better" approach is not always true when your trying to create a "natural" system.

I'm still curious as to why your tank gets cloudy (bacteria bloom I'm guessing) whenever your pull out the carbon. Can you give more info on your setup (tank size, filtration, how much liverock/sand, stocking, how long has it been running, etc.) and have you tested your water parameters lately?

[manny]

Tank info:
30 gallon long tank been running for a month and a half
Emperor 280 Filter
150 watt heater
17 lbs. Live Rock
44 lbs. Live sand
1.024 Specific Gravity
Ammonia at 0
Nitrite at 0
Nitrates at 10 ppm
Calcium level at 400
Ph 8.4
1 emerald crab
1 striped damsel who has died about three times and come back to life
1 fridmani pseudochromis
6 cerith snails
6 astrea snails
1 tiger-tail cucumber
1 tiger-striped serpent star
2- 50 gallon Powersweep Powerheads
CPR Backpack 2R

[manny]

Manny, the thing i noticed is that you're using a mechanical filter, the blue sponge, as well. That's definitely a no-no for a reef aquarium, because you're removing much of the suspended particles that filter feeders need to survive. Ocasional use is fine, but if you use it constantly, you'll be starving your tank.

So one thing I should definitely stop doing is using the replacement cartridges since they have a filtering pad. I wasn't aware that this could be bad. Kinda sucks seein as how I just bought a four pack full of brand new cartridges :x
I guess I'll just have to spend some MORE money and buy some charcoal to put in the media basket.

Another question: Is the biowheel bad to have? Do I need to take it off or should leaving it on be ok? I've heard they're "nitrate factories".

[Henry]

Manny, How soon after you remove the carbon do you see the water get cloudy? Is it right after or days later.


Henry

I only run carbon on my fowlr tank.

[manny]

It happens right after I take it out.

[MikeP]

Manny - you can use those cartridges but you need to be religious about cleaning them/changing them so bacteria doesn't build up. Looking at the amount of live rock you have I am thinking the system is relying on the bacteria growing on these filter pads for nitrogen breakdown and when you remove it the tank is temporarily thrown out of whack and a bacteria bloom accompanies it?

Try getting another 10lbs of rock and seeing if that works. Also what I often do is just take the filter pads out and put small chunks of live rock rubble in the filter compartment - worked real well on my little eclipse filter and I have done the same with a fluval canister filter and an aquaclear.

Carbon is beneficial but I wouldn't run it all the time. If you want to 'recharge' it I know we used to bake ours in the oven to recharge it back in the dark ages (10+ years ago).

[manny]

Thanks Mike,
I'll be getting some more live rock from Richard on Tuesday or Thursday. I'll also be tryin the small chunks of LR in the filter compartment and see what that does and I'll give you an update on that.

[brewercm]

I've heard of people taking the bio wheels off because of that. I doubt seriously because of their location and the way they work that they could builb up much but hey I could be wrong. :oops:

I've had the same wheels on my 400 for over 3 years and have never had a nitrate problem in my tank.

[witecap4u]

Could it be the filter pads draining back into the filter/tank when you take them out, causing the water to become cloudy? Does it get cloudy within minutes or hours?

[Henry]

I'm thinking is just the dirt and stuff draining off the pads and back into the tank. and nothing to worry about.

[manny]

I cleaned out the cartridges and filter pad yesterday and the cloudiness is comin from the filter pads draining back into the tank just as witecap and henry have suggested. No big prob. Settles after awhile. Thanks for all the input guys.