corals dying need adivce

[adamRS80]

I've got some nice frags growing in my tank and all has been well but all of the sudden a few of them are turning white at the base. Everything else in my tank seems fine. Tank is 43 gallon with one 250 Aqualine 10000k (XM will be here next week) and one 75w Super Act. R VHO. Temp is 79-82, salinity is 1.025, Alkalinity is 2.5-3, Ca is 400. The corals that seem to be having trouble are at the highest point of the tank which is roughly 11 inches from the lights, but under glass. Up untill now I've been doing great. The clams in my tank are doing well and all the other frags are fine. Any advice would be really helpful.

[Buster]

Hey Adam,

From first look it looks like you are way low on the alk. I would be curious as to how old are your bulbs? What kind of supplements have you been using? Are you doing water changes pretty regular?

Good luck,
Nick

[adamRS80]

looks to be dissappearing completely

[adamRS80]

The bulbs are only a couple of months old. Yeah the Alk is a little low. I've been using Seachem forever but I'm considering going to the ESV two part system. What do you think? Would this be a better way to keep my Alk up? I could always add it more frequently or in greater quantities.

[Buster]

Adam,

What kind of seachem products are you using?

[adamRS80]

I'm using Reef Builder for my Alk, and Reef calcium, and reef complete for the Ca, also use a little Reef Plus, and Reef Iodide. The frags are Acropora and Montipora, Stylophora, and a birds nest.

[Buster]

Adam,

Hey, I personnally would stop using reef plus and complete. I can't remember which one, but one contains gluecanates???(I guess that is how you spell is). Make your coral line look really good, but after a while that stuff builds up and creates bad problems in a fish tank.

Nick

[adamRS80]

I'll look into it and see what i can fine out. I do regular water changes to hopefully it would never get to a point of causing problems. I did raise the Alk level in my tank and notices my Xenie have been pulsing alot more than they we're the day before. I've heard that they will react to the Alk level. This coral problem is killing me. I don't understand how most corals I have and all my clams are doing well but then these 4 frags that seemed alright last week are just withering away. I'm going to frag the montipora if it gets any worse. The others are too small to frag so I hope they turn out ok. I don't think it RTN because I believe that is a pretty quick killer and it's been 3 days since I first noticed the problem and I can tell that it's only gotten a little bit worse. Hopefully things will turn around. Anybody have anymore advice?

[Ed]

Adam & Nick,

Not trying to one-up anyone, but the statement about gluconates worried me as I have used Seachem products with good results.

I E-mailed Seachem about 9:15 this evening (Sunday) and got a response a little over a hour later. (Which I thought was pretty remarkable.)

Here is my E-mail and their answer. Hope this helps.

>Do Reef Complete or Reef Plus contain any gluconates? I would like to get the info straight from you folks at Seachem to eliminate any misinformation. I have been using Reef Complete and Reef Carbonate for several months and am very pleased with the results. Thanks in advance for your time.

No, neither of those products contain gluconates. Only Reef Calcium
and Reef Strontium are gluconate based. Let me know if you have any
further questions.
--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[matt]

I guess it's possible that yout corals are having problems adjusting to the light, if you're having problems mostly in the higher parts of the tank. You probably thought of this. I would check out the Eric Borneman book on aquarium corals. There's a great chapter on coral disease with lots of pictures. You could find your answer there. BTW, 2.5-3.0 is normal seawater alkalinity, so I doubt that's a problem. People like to push their alk higher to help stabilize the chemistry in our small amount of water, as opposed to the ocean which stays rock solid at those figures. Good luck!

Matt

[Buster]

Ed,

I hate to break the news to you, but one of the two do have in it. I am not sure which one, but last time I used it, I found out it had it in it. So I quit using it. You also have to keep in mind that half the people at Seachem probably don't really know what is in half their products. Considering I would have to say the number supplement in each of the products is water.

Take a look. Found on seachem's website. Interesting I think considering that just told you it didn't have it in it.

Reef Plus™ is a full spectrum supplement of trace components such as iodide, bromide, molybdenum, iron, manganese, cobalt, potassium, inositol, choline; important vitamins such as C and B12; and beneficial amino acids, such as cysteine, proline, glycine, alanine, and lysine. It may be used as a food supplement. It complements Reef Complete™ and Reef Calcium™. It is a concentrated product: each 500 mL treats 8,000 L (2,000 gallons).


Sizes: 100 mL, 250 mL, 2 L, 4 L, 20 L

DIRECTIONS: Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 80 L (20 gallons) twice a week or as required to maintain coral growth. May also be used in food by mixing 1 mL in about 15 mL (1 tablespoon) of food. Refrigerate after opening.

Guaranteed Analysis: Boron (B): 0.0096%; Bromine (Br): 0.03%; Cobalt (Co): 0.0004%; Copper (Cu): 0.0001%; Iodine (I): 0.018%; Iron (Fe): 0.0009%; Manganese
(Mn): 0.0062%; Molybdenum (Mo): 0.0016%; Nickel (Ni): 0.000035; Rubidium (Rb): 0.0001; tin (Sn): 0.000029; Vanadium (V): 0.000030; Zinc (Zn): 0.0005%; arginine: 0.016%; glutamate: 0.09%; Lysine: 0.03%; Tyrosine: 0.019%; Choline: 0.0004%; Inositol: 0.0011%; Niacin: 0.025%; Pantothenate: 0.0070%; Riboavin: 0.0020%; Thiamine: 0.0020%; Vitamin B12: 0.00009%; Vitamin C: 0.50%


Notice Something wrong with this picture?

Adam,

Have you taken a look at your phosphates? Do you have good current on your corals? What kind of fish do you have in the tank?

Nick

[adamRS80]

OK here are the answers to the quesitons asked. I have not switched salts, but there might be an isue with the lights. Is it possible for them to be too close or get too much. My photoperiod is pretty normal, and the fact that this problem just started makes me think that it's not the light. I believe my phosphates are low but I will test or put in some sponge. I have no problem with algae so I don't think phosphates are an issue. The tank has good current, and these corals are in the best position, but are not getting blasted, just good movement. The fish in my tank are a Regal tang, cinnamon clown, firefish, and court jester goby. I just don't get it. Anybody have any more advice. I'll continue to post any progress or problems.

[Buster]

Adam,

I don't think it is the lights being to close because you said they were 11 or 14 inches off the water right?

Just to be curious what is the last thing you did to the tank right before this all started happening? Change anything. Tank temp alright? Are the lights your running 10k's 20k's. Don't worry we will get to the bottom of this.

Nick

[adamRS80]

Ok here is the latest. I don't think there could be any contaminiation of the water. The only thing I could think of is that I use a silver spoon to stir up the reef builder but it's never in the glass of water for more than 20 seconds. As far as remembering the last thing I did before I noticed this, I have a daily schedlue that I follow for dosing/feeding so nothing has changed. These particular corals are about 8-10 inches from the actual 250w MH bulb. The lights are about 6 inches from the water. The light is a 10000k aqualine, and it first shines through an Oceanic glass top. I don't think there is a water quality issue because pretty much everything else in my tank is doing well other than these 4 frags. The good news is that my Xenia are pumping like crazy and seem to be growing really well. My clams are doing well also and they are really small, and it's my understanding smaller ones are more sensetive and a little harder to keep. I added a little phosphate sponge just in case. Tank temp is usually around 81, 82 max, but usually 80-81. Thats all I got right now. I will be getting a 250w XM bulb in this week so maybe that will help. Would the XM be a little less intense? Maybe the lights are the problem. It just seems strange that it becamse an issue all of the sudden

[Buster]

Adam,

I am not sure what rating your xm bulb is going to be, but when I switched from a 10k to a 20k the color in the acropora's just became awesome. Under the 10k the acroporas were not doing as good as I could of hoped. They were all turning brown. So after a little asking around and talking with others I made the switch. Let me just say I don't think I would ever switch back either. Once you get your xm bulb give it about a month, you should notice something by then. I know that sounds like a long time, but trust me, the color will improve if that is in fact what is happening to the colors near the top of your tank. You have to remember red is like one of the first colors of the color spectum. 10k's have a lot of red in them. 20k tend to have a lot of blue in them, which is the last color in the spectrum, which if you have ever been scuba diving and you see someone with a red wetsuit it turns brown pretty quick as you go down. If someone has a blue wetsuit it stays blue for a long time. This might help you make sence of why everything at the bottom of your tank is doing good and why everything at the top is not doing so hot.

Best of luck,
Nick

[Charley]

I would love to join in on the Seachem portion of this thread, but I have a question:

Buster, you mentioned Gluconate in your first comment, and then after Ed’s reply you mention a totally different salt; Glutamate. Based on what I found at the Merriam-Webster online dictionary, these are not the same thing.

Main Entry: glu·co·nate
Pronunciation: 'glü-k&-"nAt
Function: noun
Date: 1884
: a salt or ester of gluconic acid


Main Entry: glu·con·ic acid
Pronunciation: (")glü-'kä-nik-
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, irregular from glucose + -ic
Date: 1871
: a crystalline acid C6H12O7 obtained by oxidation of glucose and used chiefly in cleaning metals


Main Entry: glu·ta·mate
Pronunciation: 'glü-t&-"mAt
Function: noun
Date: 1876
: a salt or ester of glutamic acid -- compare MONOSODIUM GLUTAMATE


Main Entry: glu·tam·ic acid
Pronunciation: (")glü-'ta-mik-
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary gluten + amino + -ic
Date: 1871
: a crystalline amino acid C5H9NO4 widely distributed in plant and animal proteins


Which one of these are you saying is bad for a reef?

I am concerned about your indiscriminate firing of comments aimed towards industry representatives. Although you believe that half of them know little if any about their products, could it be that the one Ed mentioned (who I know personally) might be in your “intelligent” half?

If you have specific questions about their products, I would be more than happy to pass them on to Seachem. As I speak with them on a weekly basis, it would be no problem.

I have dosed these products for years in tanks ranging from 180g to 6g with no ill affects.


Adam,

I would recommend dipping the coral in some type of Coral Dip (Tech-D from Kent comes to mind) to try and halt the dying as you work more on what might be the cause of your problem.
Charley

[Ed]

Adam,

In doing some research, I came upon this article that might be worth your time. (Pay special attention to the second paragraph.)

I discovered some of these same critters in my tank and am now on the hunt.

http://garf.org/Star/starfish.html

HTH

-Ed

[matt]

Ed;

There are small stars that closely resemble these guys all over my nano reef. I've never seen them go after a coral; in that tank I have a capnella, montipora, hydnophora, and acropora. Now I'm nervous....
Matt

[Sherri]

Ack! I have small stars in my tank also. Never seen them on my corals, always on the glass...but then again...I haven't been looking for them on my corals. Gonna start "hunting" also. Have always thought "cool," I've got starfish... :roll:

Sherri

[Ed]

Yeah, before reading the article I thought the little stars were a good thing too. I have lost an acro to the symptoms described though and am actively eliminating the little buggers every chance I get.

It is my understanding that the 'bad' stars are the ones with the weird 5th leg (kinda squared off instead of pointy). The other stars shown in the article seem to have one different leg as well.

Good hunting!

-Ed

[Sherri]

Some of them are only a half star?!

Sherri

[adamRS80]

I haven't seen any of those little stars in my tank but I know I've seen them plenty of times before in other tanks, or in liverock tanks at aquarium stores. I can say that the corals seem to be doing better, a couple of them definitly are and the others have at least stopped dying and are stable. It seemed that once I raised the alkalinity things got better. I could probably also use a little more water movement in some areas of the tank. I appreciate everybodys help.