Filter or skimmer?

[Lisaod12]

Good morning all.
I'm new to the group, but not to salt fish keeping. I'm still sorta new with the reef thing.

I was wondering, what your feelings are on filters?

I know some folks only use a large skimmer and seem to have good success in a reef tank.

I run a wet/dry I'm not using bio balls, but stars and the seem to be better in terms of how much junk collects in the filter.

I'm considering adding another skimmer, I have one on the hang on wet/dry.

Also I'm looking forward to learning and chatting with the group.

Lisa

[Jimnorris]

Lisa,
Welcome! Your are at the right place for reefkeeping!
Jim

[Chuck]

Hi Lisa,
Welcome to the group!

You will likely receive a ton of information on any topic you post here as everyone really works hard to help each other. With that said you will also receive a lot of opinions (Good Ones) of what works for that individual.
So with that said here is my take:

I have a 110gl reef without any mechanical filtration.
I do have about 50lbs live rock and a 2" live sand bed. I use DI water and am careful with my feeding. The main filtration is a very large group of Xenia and possibly my squamosa clam and an assortment of sponges and snails. The only problem I have had was a skim on the surface of my water which I have now corrected by repostioning my powerheads to disturb the surface more. Now it is very clear.
I used to have 2 skimmers on the tank but removed them about 6 -7 months ago as the only time I noticed them pulling out anything was shortly after I added a trace element etc...
Since that time my Xenia has went crazy and the other corals have grown. IMO it is not neccesary to use a skimmer. That is not to say this process works for everyone. I do add about 3gl top off about twice a week and I do a 20% change once a month. I know this does not answer your question directly but I hope this helps ya! :)
Chuck

[RedDragon]

Welcome to MAAST Lisa,


THis is the Best place in Texas and the world!!! :-D

[Jeff Post]

I agree with Chuck and Josh.

[matt]

I'll disagree with the no-skimmer crowd. If you're new to reef aquaria, you will definitely appreciate the margin of error in creating a balanced ecosystem that a GOOD protein skimmer provides. There are experienced aquarists who have succes with no skimmer; but they invariably have other means of nutrient export in place, and enough flow and turbulence to make sure that O2 saturation is happening, and enough experience to be able to monitor their system closely enough to maintain the delicate balance between enough nutrition (mostly particulate or suspended nutrients) for the reef and too much dissolved nutrients, which can spur algae and pollute the water.

Other than a good skimmer, you should avoid any mechanical filtration, like the floss filters popular in fresh water. These effectively remove any planktonic stuff in the water, starving all your filter feeders. But you should get a skimmer; it will allow you to feed your tank well, and keep O2 levels high, which will really help you maintain a stable ph.

HTH
Matt

[Tim Marvin]

I run my tanks skimmerless except for the DAS because it is built in. I would have to afree with Matt though, for a new hobbiest it is probabbly best to start with a skimmer and work it out of the system later when you feel comfortable about it.

[MikeP]

also, one thing to add I would reccomend buying a little more skimmer than you need rather than going on the cheap. I really like the AquaC skimmers for price/performance - they have bothhang on, in sump and inline skimmers.

www.proteinskimmer.com


You can always combine filtration methods too - I actually use a skimmer, refugium, some mechanical and some chemical filtration on my big tank.

[TexasState]

With a good sand bed, lots of live rock, and good water movement, you can have a very stable tank with no filters at all.
Oh No! I don't have any sand in my tank. :shock:

[Chuck]

Lisa,
If you like you can use one of the sea clones I had on my tank before you spend big bucks. I know they are not the top of the line but it may be worth it for you to test it. As I said there are a lot of opinions :-o
PM me if you would like to try it.
Chuck

[utmachete]

I like Refugiums and I recommend them to all my customers. Skimmers are nice to have on new tanks but well estalished systems with large refugiums do not need them. For the Money refugium have to be the cheapest form of filtration and they are like having a second tank.

So I recommend borrowing a skimmer from somebody (3-4 months) and getting a refugium.

[Jimnorris]

O no! I do not have a skimmer or sand also! But I have a BIG clam!
Jim

[Lisaod12]

Thank you everyone for you input.

I do have a small skimmer that came with my Amiracle SL-5 Slim Line Hang-On 5. I usually do more than I need for my tank, which has gotten me in trouble in the past..

I have noticed several people I respect only using Skimmers, in addition to the live rock and sand. It does scare me, I feel like I have a little buffer, buy having my wet dry and my skimmer. I also have a Teco heater/chiller I just purchased. My VHO lights here just keeping the tank too hot.

technoshaman, I looked at the web site you attached. Thank you for including it. I'm just not sure I understand how I would set up some of those skimmers. They look good and the cost is really not my main concern. I worry I would get something that would not work with my set up.

I have only been doing reef for 3 years, and I realize there is always something new to learn.

If there was not, I don't think I'd like it as much!

I'm going to look at some skimmers, and Chuck, I would be interested in looking into your sea clone skimmer and may even buy it from you if you'd like. Does it require an external powerhead?

I'm a bit scared to remove my filter, I guess I'm filter dependant...

I feel like I need a buffer or a margin for error, although I have had an algae problem which I'm sure was from the bio balls, I replaced them with stars and the wet/dry seems cleaner.

I guess I'm scared.. :o

[Jeff Post]

UTMACHETE can probably build you a good refugium for the price of a good skimmer or at least close to it. I prefer the natural method of filtration because if it is set up well it is easy to maintain and quiet. I have had a tank for several years and I do not keep a close watch on it. The live rock with a skimmer provided all of my filtration for years. I have eliminated the skimmer for the past year with no apparent ill effects and added a refuigium a few months ago. I like simple.

[matt]

If I'm not mistaken, the no-skimmer folks who have posted on this are all pretty experienced reef keepers with established systems. A refugium can help with nutrrient export, mainly by growing caulerpa, but this is not the most efficient form of nutrient export. I read a study somewhere that showed you'd need ALOT of caulerpa to match the nutrient export of an average skimmer. This was done by analizing skimmate and caulerpa from typical systems.

Lisa, don't be scared! :-D It's not worth it.

As far as skimmer choice goes, I'll step out on another limb and say that if your system is anything bigger than, say, 50 gallons, you should avoiud all the skimmers that are driven by small powerheads. I have supposedly the best one, aquac urchin, and it's just okay. Go right for the "big gulp" ones that use a sizable pump. These would include aquac EV series, PM beckett skimmers, etc. FWIW, I'm taking the MACO skimmer construction class this summer, and will end up with a skimmer that has a 6" diameter reaction tube, and is driven by a pressure pump pushing more than 1000gph through the skimmer. (that's a big one) I've thought about building a smaller version of the same skimmer, with a 4 1/2" tube, maybe driven by something on the order of a mag 9. My goal here is to come up with an excellent skimmer that really works well for systems 50-100 gallons, without having to use the big expensive pump to run it.

Sorry for the long post.

Matt

[utmachete]

Skimmers take out extra waste and nutrients from the water you are correct , but they serve a different purpose altogether than a refugium. Refugiums take out the end product of waste Nitrates. As far as Nitrates are concerned Refugiums are generally the cheapest and most reliable way to get rid of them. If you have a well established tank with a fair amount of liverock and conservative amount of fish then all those extra nutrients will be broken down and used by the thousands of inhabitants of your tank. (cocopeds, bristleworms, etc.)

Correct me if I'm wrong but Skimmers aren't generally used to take out nitrates in your water. (just the waste that creates it) It's a form of mechanical filtration, right.
I say if you have a skimmer, and a refugium use both of them. If the skimmer stops taking waste out of the water at least it aerates the water.

[matt]

Actually, refugiums are probably not very good at removing nitrates from a typical reef system, because they're just not big enough to produce enough macro algae to process all the nitrate produced by a typical aquarium with fish. Deep sand beds are the usual means of nitrate reduction, by providing ample anerobic substrate. Probably a decent sized and well lit refugium can produce enough caulerpa to out-compete other forms of algae for phosphate and therefore have a legitimate, valuable contribution. But the reason most people keep refugiums is for what they produce; specifically, lots of micro fauna and planktonic life that would otherwise not survive in the display tank with predators. (fish, shrimp, hermits)

utmachete, your point about skimmers and refugiums having different purposes is right on; I imagine I'll use both for a long time. As far as people advocating "natural" methodology by not having a skimmer, please remember that if we adhered to nature in this hobby, we'd all have millions of gallons of water for the amount of substrate in our systems, and we'd be exchanging that water every few seconds.

[Chuck]

Good points all. But Matt I disagree with your last statement. Case in point my 110 is all natural and only 20% per month water change excluding top off. I am not proposing this to the green reefer but as a simple fact.
It does work without a skimmer or any mechanical filtration. You just have to have enough nature in the tank and use common sense when you feed.
Lisa,
I will get with you on the Clone asap I have been out of town on business and just got back.

[matt]

Chuck;

I'm not saying that going skimmer free is a bad idea or that it can't work. I'm just saying that it does not emulate natural reef conditions any more than using a skimmer does. By far, the biggest difference between our aquariums and the ocean is the ratio of water to substrate, and the lack of water exchange in our systems. Just because there aren't skimmers in the ocean (although we've all seen brown scummy sea foam) doesn't mean that using one is "less natural" than not using one. In fact, I think a good case can be made that the action of a skimmer provides somewhat of an analogous effect to the turbulence caused by waves crashing ever few seconds on the reef.

Okay, maybe not a good case :) But, in order to create an analogous artificial eco-system, which is the most we can aspire for, unless you live on the beach and can have the tide blast into your aquarium all day, we have to find artificial ways of replacing the effects of nature on the reef. I think a skimmer does a good job in helping to do this.

Matt

[Tim Marvin]

Whooooooo wait Matt. There are huge skimmers in the ocean! They are called waves! Waves produce a lot of proteins in certain places. Especially after storms large foam mounds are up on the beaches. You are correct though, if we wanted to compare our tanks to the ocean we would have to put one damsel in a 100,000 gallon tank with tons of plants and sand.

[matt]

Yeah, Tim, that was kind of my point. There's so much turbulence on the reef crest that produces foam, it really may be more "natural" to run a skimmer.

Matt

[Tim Marvin]

Isn't this a cool hobby? So many choices that work.

[TexasState]

Actually, refugiums are probably not very good at removing nitrates from a typical reef system, because they're just not big enough to produce enough macro algae to process all the nitrate produced by a typical aquarium with fish.

In my future sump, I'm going to submerge Bioballs in water (so it's not really a full blown wet-dry.) Hopefully, the submerged bioballs will create nitrate, which in turn help the caulerpa to grow.
http://www.athiel.com/lib7/lengsy.htm