Flatworms

[ratboy]

This thread originated from here (http://www.maast.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic& t=711).
Moved to General by Chris

Not to be one to blow someones sale but isnt that the sand from Ed Hammer's tank that had the flatworm infestation? Ive never had them but from what I understand flatworms are like reefkeeper VD, you never fully get rid of them. Ed treated the tank and I believe he got reduced them from the plauge populations they were at.

[Sherri]

Just being curious....what does a flatworm look like? - I know...other than looking flat!! :roll: And how do you happen to get them?? Or how can you avoid them?

Sherri

[Hammer]

No, I said they were GONE. It has been months now with ZERO flatworms since then.
When I dosed the tank, I dosed it HEAVY, and left it in a long time fore running carbon.
Now, I am not saying that having them is impossible, but that after this many months, I would have seen them. And trust me, I have been looking.

[ratboy]

http://www.mindspear.com/reef/archives/flatworms.htm

Not the best link but.. search reefcentral and you will find lots of discussion about them. My understanding is that they tend ot bloom like algae outbreaks when tank conditions are favorable. Ive read of several methods to eradicate them but none appear to be perfect (leave some, release flatoworm toxins and nuke tank, treatment damages biological balance, etc..) The foolproof way to get rid of them is to break the tank down and start over.

[Brett Wilson]

RATBOY

I saw the tank when it had flatworms, then I saw it again after he dosed quinnselex and killed them all.

He has been able to keep corals in this tank and feeds it, so you be the judge as to whether or not they will come back.
He has a few of my corals in there right now too, im not worried about them because I dont see any flatworms!

-Brett

[Hammer]

Actually a number of people have treated for FW and haven't had any repopulations. I think it has to do with how serious they are in dosing for them.
I have had a few different corals from this tank put in another tank of mine, and this tank (20 gallon) hasn't had any FW at all either.

[Hammer]

Not to mention some peices of LR as well from the 120 into the 20 gallon. And if they were to survive anywhere, I would think the LR would afford them the best chance for survival.

[ratboy]

Like I said Ive never had flatworms so I have no experience with their erradication. With the people that wont buy a tank that has ever had copper run in it I would be a bit surprised that people would knowingly purchase sand or rock that was involved in a outbreak of any pests.

[Brett Wilson]

Ratboy, I really disrespect your opinion on this one and the research you did before you doged on a fellow reefers thread.

Copper is a chemical, there is scientific fact showing that you have to do some unrealistic chemical treatment to remove it.
Flatworms are planerea, there is fact showing that they can be removed completely.

How can you compare these two?

I dont like seeing people slam others when they dont have a full grasp of what they are slamming for and dont do research to find out if that person is still having that problem or not.

All we ask is that you be careful when you do what you have done here, really look for imformation regarding the subject specially when quoting someones experience.

-Brett

[Chris]

Because I too hate when your For Sale thread gets turned into a discussion... lets finish the rest of this one out here in General.

8)

[Brett Wilson]

Thanks chris...

[captexas]

I remember from Eds posts on here that he was working very hard and paying close attention to get rid of the problem in his tank before he put it up for sale. In fact, if you read his thread on the tank in the for sale section, he talks about it.

I had flat worms, more specifically the red planaria, in my 58. They got so bad I had to scrape the glass daily. I does Quinsullex one time at half the recommended dosage and they completely died off very quickly. I had a few other losses in the way of starfish and cucumber, but in the months since then my tank has been flatworm free.


I do find it very strange though that with all the problems Jaime has been having with his tank and livestock that he wants to get rid of decent live sand just to spend more money to put in new dead sand. :?:

[Hammer]

Thanks Chris.

As for the sand issue, that was my recommendation. It had to do with the short period of time from taking one tank down, and setting it back up. And the amount of buildup that occurs in a DSB. And for all of us that have them, moving them can easily spell disaster. I figured that in his case he could skip this step and have a healthy tank with a much less change of die off from the tank move.

I think Brett has summed up most of my feelings on how this was approached.
I personally would not sell this setup without solving the problem of FW, let alone not tell anyone about them. The last thing I would want is to unleash the plaque on someones tank.

[RedDragon]

the sand am selling is not from my 37g it's the sand from Ed's 120g and it's like Ed put it

[Tim Marvin]

You guys worry too much. If it is of concern, wash the sand in fresh water for a day and start it over.

[captexas]

Josh -
Yes those two things can happen. I don't blame anyone for being nervous about using it though and by chance not using enough. It is very scary not knowing for sure what will happen. Everyone agrees that it kills the nasty bugs dead, but it can affect peoples tanks differently. Any time you add an outside chemical to your tank you are taking a chance. I dosed at half the recommended dose and ran carbon afterwards and did water changes. Some inverts are more sensitive than others and when my cucumbers started shrinking up I didn't take any chances as they can emit a deadly toxin into the water when they die.

Jamie - Yes I can read and I realize it didn't come from your 37. I don't think it is possible to fit that much sand into that small tank to begin with.

As far as the sand goes, yes I agree that there will be some die off when it is removed from the tank to move it to another location. When the tank is set back up it will have to start a new cycle anyways and as long as there is no livestock in the tank (which there shouldn't be at the beginning anyways), there won't be a problem. This die off will actually help cycle the new setup. All you need is water in the tank with some basic circulation for now and everything will be fine. Even if you are not going to set it up for awhile, let the sand dry out. Then when you start the tank up again, you can seed it with a small amount of someone elses live sand and/or with the live rock you put in the tank. Why waste money on more dead sand that you will have to seed anyways when you have plenty of good sand already? Especially when he said he is going to let it cycle for up to 2 months to begin with. :?:

And Ed - If moving a DSB can easily spell disaster like you say and you don't want Jaime to deal with this, why is it ok for him to sell it to someone else to deal with? :?:

Realize that I am not questioning the quality of what is being sold or the ethics of the people involved as was done earlier by another person. I am only asking simple questions and offer help to get someone's new tank setup. :D

Chris

[captexas]

Deleted due to double posting. Dang AOL! :evil:

[Hammer]

When I got this tank setup many months ago, it did not have enough sand stirrers, and had many spots that were stagnant. Since I got the tank and had it setup I had some issues with nutrients from the sand getting stirred up from either fishes or conches (mostly an engineer goby). And while I think I have conquered most of these issues. Even to the point I scooped out 37 pounds this weekend and it all looked like great sand. I was trying to help Red Dragon out in his quest to have this tank setup.
If he set the tank up with only the sand and LR and left the tank running for that long, why bother? Simple dead sand, and some of this live sand will have great live sand, and not have nearly as much issues with nutrients from moving a DSB.
And it makes great sense to sell this off in portions to many people to help seed there tanks. Nothing of harm from this level of nutrient transfer, but if done all at once in an impatient manner, it could make for a large cycle, and IMO, unecessary.
Having setup many tanks, and having swapped a few DSBs now, I would not advise many people to move one. This of course is my opinion based on my experience. I think the simplest setup is a bunch of LR, a clean sand bed and get some sand from other people's tanks. Or just let the life from the LR start it.
He could even go so far as to rinse this sand and use it. But that is making more work. And he can sell the current sand to many people, help them out, keep enough for his own purposes, and everyone is happy.

Just my view on things here though.