Help With Metal Halide

[z28pwr]

Well I'm getting ready to setup a 150 gallon reef tank. The tank is 24" tall and will have a 4" sandbed. For lighting I was thinking of using (2) 250 Watt Metal Halides and (4) 4 FT VHO's.

I was thinking of purchasing the Mangetic Metal Halide Kit that hellolights sells unless there is a big advantage to running an Electronic ballast which costs twice as much.


This is the Mangetic Ballast Kit
http://www.hellolights.com/25methalretk.html

And this is the Electronic Ballast Kit
http://www.hellolights.com/25methalbalk.html

Also what bulb do you guys recommend ?

6500K Iwasaki
6500K Coralife
10,000K USHIO
10,000K Aqualine
10,000K Coralife
20,000K Coralife

Thanks.

[TexasState]

IMHO, stay away from C*r*l*f*. I have several different type of light bulbs. Maybe you should drop by and check them out. You just have to tell me in advance, b/c I haven't got around to hang up the MH pendant yet.

If you have the money, use 250W double ended HQI in 10K instead of the regular single socket.

Two pendant double-endend HQI pendant over that tank might be enough. If you can afford to, put a 400W Radium in btwn the two HQI.

[Troy Valentine]

z28pwr-

I am running both the Iwasaki and the Ushio, if you would like to come over and compair the 2 spectrums, to see which one you like.
just call me. ;)

[Tim Marvin]

I am switching to double ended! Very intense light and good spread. I am impressed at how much stronger the light looks than mogul based. The electronic ballast is just preference, they will only save about $25-$30 a month in electricity. That is only $300-$360 a year in electric saving hardly worth the upgrade. ;)

[OrionN]

I would just forget about the PC or VHO. Just two or at most three MH. This will give you pleny of light and not have to worry about changing all these bulbs. They get expensime when you have to change 4 bulbs very 6 months (25 dollars each)
If you use two 400W MH plus a 250 in the middle (or all 250 W), You got all the light you need. Also, with just MH, the hood will be very open and easy to ventilate.
I guess I am one of those that go all MH. No PC or VHO for me even in the sump.
Minh Nguyen

[z28pwr]

Thanks for you're help guys.

Troy, let me know when is a good time to take a look at those lights.

VPham97, are you running any double ended HQI ?

I've been hearing that the double ended bulbs produce ALLOT more heat and require a UV shield and that the bulbs are very delicate, that is why I didn't consider them.

http://www.hellolights.com/2510hqius.html

If the electronic ballast can really save you $300 bucks a year then they are definately worth the money.

[OrionN]

Two things:
Single end MH is really just double end MH with a glass envelope around it for shield. Most of the double ended MH fixture have glass cover in front of it. It is maller that the single end fixture and you can fit it into tighter space, IMO.
E-ballasts as Chris stated above, is not reliable IME. I used to have Icecap ballasts but sold them and get PFO ballast instead. I am not sure about the saving Tim stated, but I know that my e-ballasts get warm. I don't think I woudl save 25 per month for each of my 400W MH. I never tested and see how much I would save. I do know that my fuse were burned twice in the first year and have to return them to Icacap for recheck because I the new fuse I put in burned every time. That took several weeks. I also have flicker with my e ballasts. I did not like it one bit. This was back in 1998. Maybe techmology have changed. i love my PFO HQI ballasts.

[Chris]

Doh... sorry.. Minh isn't crazy.. I had to delete my post... somehow my time got messed up and I couldn't post. Here's my post:

Everything i've read about the electronic ballasts (it's been about a year so unless they've changed that much)... they aren't all that efficient as claimed.

For someone like Tim who has a bunch of lights all throughout the house sure they'll save that $25/month... but I remember a test was done a while back and the savings were actually not that big(if only running a single bulb). Using a single ballast it would take about 2 years til you were actually making any savings vs the higher cost of the ballast. Granted the prices of electronic ballasts have come down now-a-days... I hear they're still pretty fussy and people still have more problems and returns with them over the good ol' mv/tar ballasts.

Looking up champion lighting's site though... the single 400W e-ballast is $160... back then they were about I think $200-$250 and my dual PFO's cost me $160... So it would have cost me a ton to get two bulbs(and I wanted 4). They're a bit more affordable. Anyone comment on reliability?

Personally i've never read/seen/heard of any complaints about PFO ballasts. Even John Moffet switched over from e-ballasts to straight PFO's due to all the troubles he had with them.

my $0.02 8)

[Jimnorris]

I use PFO ballasts. I have 4 400 watt duals and one single. They IMO are the best for the money. The Iwasakis 6,500k bulbs are yellow in the 400 watt so actinic supplement is really needed. I mix the 400 watt 6,500k sakis with 20,000k 400 watt Ushios and I like the effect.
Jim

[z28pwr]

Sounds like everybody is running 400 WATT halides. Should I run 400 instead of 250 or are you guys just keeping some really hard stuff that requires all that light ?

It also seems that you get the most growth with 6500K - 10,000K bulbs and the least with 20,000K bulbs. Is this correct ?

[captexas]

Z28 -

From everything I have read, you are correct in that 6500 to 10000K usually works the best as far as coral growth. Iwasaki bulbs tend to be alittle on the yellow side rather than a clear/crisp white light that the Radiums produce. One thing I have read it that the Iwasaki bulbs can vary a little from bulb to bulb and of course by ballast. Overall, it comes down to what light looks best to you as everyones has their own opinions.

I just installed a 400watt Iwasaki on my 58gallon using a conventional M59 ballast that is normally used for lighting large warehouse type buildings. I placed it inbetween the 4 95watt VHO lights I already had on the tank. I currently have 2 daylight bulbs and 2 actinic bulbs on the VHOs that are needing to be replaced soon and I am thinking of going with just actinic bulbs on them and seeing how that looks. Not bad right now though. All the coral polyps have really opened up. The only things that doesn't like the bright light are my two clowns which are now staying under their anemone instead of on top! 8)

Chris

[OrionN]

I mixed Radium (2X400W) and Iwasaki (4X400W) I have the Radium on for 14 hrs while the Iwasaki on for 4 hrs each in set of 2.
7 AM two Radium come on. At 11 AM two Iwasaki come on. 1 PM the other two Iwasaki come on. 3PM first 2 Iwasaki off and 5 PM the other two Iwasaki off. 9 PM the two Radium turn off.
Essentially I have 2 hrs of very bright lights and nice blueish light AM and PM when I view the tank the most.
My Coral grow very fast and have very nice color. When my Radium got old, the corals loose color. With in a week or so after replace the Radium, the color come right back.
The A. humilist I got from the MO frag Jan 19 have already turn blue in my tank. I think the Radium add alot of color to the corals. I am not sure if I replace the Radium with 10,000K or Iwasaki, I would get the same color. I will try to do this in the near future just to see if the color is due to the bright light or the blue light.

Minh Nguyen

[captexas]

To see comparison pics of Iwasaki/Ushio/Sunburst MH lamps over a tank try this link http://www.marinedepot.com/a_lt_mh_bulb_info.asp?CartId=

[newtosa]

I tried the Blue Line e-ballast (400w) from Champion. 16 months, dead ballast. Champion didn't like the way I had run the electricity in my fishroom, so they chose not to honor the warranty. Another story for another time....

Point is - I tried hard to make the e-ballast work, and I got bulbs that didn't start as well (for the whole 16 months), unproven elec. savings (didn't really do an elec. bill audit during the time I was running e-ballast), and a dead ballast for my trouble. I agree - Advance M59 is the way to go. Get a Radio Shack hobby box, 20' worth of 14-3 romex, and a plug, and go for it.

Z28 - 24" is right at the tipping point IMO - 250 vs. 400, that is. Several years back I got all worked up about a lighting article (http://community-2.webtv.net/deflizard/doc/page8.html), ran the lumens calculations, and decided a 75g (20" tall) needed 2 400w MHs. So that's what I've been running ever since. Overreaction? In hindsight, yep. But nothing proper acclimation (both to lighting and water chemistry) can't overcome.

Good luck with it; let us know how it goes.

Dean

[Tim Marvin]

I have been running 2- 400 watt blueline E-ballast for a couple years. One did go out and I received a new one from Champion. The one that went out was also flooded with water at one time so that could have been the problem. It wasn't running at the time, but hard to tell if it dried out and salt creep could have caused a problem a few weeks later. Anyway, I have also used Geissmann double ended, nice. PFO with icecap ballast 250 watt, very nice. VHO, PC, and NO bulbs. I think I like the PFO 250 watt double ended the best.

[OrionN]

With my Icecap ballasts, often (once or twice a month) I would get home to a dark tank because the light shut off durring the day for what ever reason and would not turn on again. I have to manual start and it would light up.
When I used it 4 years ago, Electronic (Icecap) ballast was unrealiable, blow fuse often, and about 1/3 of the day, the light would flicker for some reason. I have an old house (build in 1955). It is possible that the wiring of the house was the problem. However, the tar ballast that I used there did not have such problem. I have NEVER have any of my tar ballasts misfired or shut down the bulb or cause the light to flicker.

Minh

[Tim Marvin]

Oh I agree I have used the 400 watt PFO's with no problems. I also had a Hamilton that work fine.

[TexasState]

>VPham97, are you running any double ended HQI ?
Not right now, but I have b4.
http://www.swt.edu/~xp42012/2002/june-02-125-.jpg

>I've been hearing that the double ended bulbs produce ALLOT more heat

Are you talking about the heat output from the pendant itself, or from the ballast? If you run a regular (Hamilton) ballast, and stick it under your stand, then your stand is going to get warm. If you are running them on an electronic ballast, then it woudln't be much of a problem with high heat output from the ballast.

> and require a UV shield and that the bulbs are very delicate, that is >why I didn't consider them.
Even with the glass shield, it should be brighter then the single socket 10K bulb.
Don't touch the bulb, this is taken from Premium Aquatic:
"FINGERPRINT NOTE: Double ended bulbs should never be handled with bare hands. The oil from your skin can cause the bulb to crack. You could either always hold by the ends or wear cloth gloves. If you accidently get your finger prints on the bulb sleeve. Take rubbing acholhol and lightly clean with clean cloth."

"UV NOTE: Double ended bulbs do not have the enclosed glass like the Mogule screw in type lamps. This means they have no UV shield. You should never run a double ended bulb with out the glass shield. UV damaged can result in your corals, especially gorgonians."

Minh and Tim,
In regard to the Icecap. You guys are talking about two different things. Minh is talking about the older model Icecap. I sold Tim a newest model Icecap 250W. Those two Icecap ballast physically look different. I don't know if there has been a miscommunication or not, but the Pendant that I sold to Tim is a Sunlight Supply Pendant. If I were to buy a new MH setup, I would go with the Icecap Electronic. You can screw the Icecap Electronic ballast to the wall, vs. leaving the ( warm, hot, buzzing regular tar ballast close to the ground .)

[captexas]

On the Hellolights.com webisite, they state there is a difference in types of ballasts called "pulse" and "probe" start and some bulbs work best using one or the other. Also, the bulbs that come from Europe are designed using ballasts that run on the 230volts power there. This gives the bulb extra push to start up and run steady. While the bulbs usually work fine here on the 120volt ballasts, incidents do occur during testing where the bulb will not start up or it will shut off after running for awhile. It can also sometimes produce the flickering and inconsistant color that some people talk about.

I think that the newer ballasts on the market have been designed to run just about any bulb available, but the older ballasts may produce problems on some bulbs. This may be the reason for Mihns experiences as he runs Radiums.

[z28pwr]

This is excellent info thanks guys.


Chris did you edit my last post instead of quoting it ?

[Chris]

This is excellent info thanks guys.


Chris did you edit my last post instead of quoting it ?


:o


Opps!


If you plan on keeping a lot of SPS than 400's are really the way to go. Considering the size of that 150G they would be great for it with some Spiderlight reflectors or the Diamond Lumenarc III reflectors.

6500K bulbs definately give you the most growth. The higher up the Kelvin rating you go... the more pleasing it can be to the eye. With the Iwasaki's you'll probably need VHO actinics to make the tank look nice... you probably won't need any actinic support with the 20K Radiums.

A lot of it is preference in color, but your bulb will also help determine the colors that come out in your corals.

[Tim Marvin]

I stand corrected! The pendant is a reef opix from sunlight supply, but it is running on an icecap electronic ballast and works great! I have gone from $500 a month electric bill to $200. I changed all the ballast, took off a couple pumps, and a window air conditioner. I am just guessing that the lights were half of that bill. Maybe a little less. The air conditioner only ran every couple days. when it got really hot.

[Tim Marvin]

I think this is the exact set-up I got from Vinh, only with the AB bulb. Very nice, and I only gave him $150 cash for it brand new not even wired yet. Oh yeh, I did have to give him my 150watt geissmann. I like the 250 better though in my application it just works better.

[ziggyrocket]

I was thinking about tim's comment on power consumption on metal halides saving 300 bucks a year...thats alot of light you are using tim. I did some research as i have been wanting to upgrade to some MH's soon, and was crunchin all the numbers. The typical coil and cap ballast's are pretty efficient, and if you figure a 250 watt bulb is consuming 250 watts then it uses .25kw per hour, and i know here in texas the average price for elecricity is .065 cents per kilo watt hr so a 250 watt bulb uses once cent of electricity per hour, 24 cents a day..which is about 7 bucks a month. And that is an efficient estimate. If i used metal halides on my tank, i would double the power consumption in my apartment per month...thats a crazy thought...so im trying to think of a more efficient way to do it...maybe ill crack cold fusion :D
By the way...thanks for the corals tim...they look great, and I would gladly recomend you to anyone...great stuff. :D